Younger people should be rewarded for lockdown via affordable housing

[Ordree]

As others have noted, young people (not just those in frontline roles) are making enormous sacrifices to protect others, mostly but not exclusively from much older age groups. They will be bequeathed a damaged planet, a ruined economy and they will have done further damage to their mental health by staying indoors for months on end. They are the ones paying older people's pensions when they won't have anything like the same financial security to look forward to themselves. Yes I know older people paid their elders pensions during their working lives, bit never has there been such an imbalance. As the economy is likely to be ruined short to medium term anyway, would it not be reasonable to start the biggest givernment-funded housebuilding programme ever, allow younger people who have just bought to write off negative equity losses against tax, and essentially redress some of the appalling imbalance between generations and classes?

sageandroses

Dd was 17 when she started doing agency work with a few agencies to earn money whilst she got her business off the ground

She is very confident and has a knack for the work and was soon promoted to supervisor after only 3 shifts working for the company and manager a few months later where she is one of their most requested people.

There really isn’t anywhere else to go short of owning the company in this type of work.

She comes back with stories about the people who have spent 3 years and £50K learning about how to do the job in this industry who don’t know even basic stuff

Through this work she has been offered f/t jobs managing offices by people she has met.
She has explained she is not qualified in anything. She doesn’t have a degree or A levels but the company isn’t interested in what qualifications she has. They just see someone who is running large events and everything is running smoothly and on time.

They do a double take when she tells them that she is only a teenager

I know of quite a few people who manage people who are much older than than they are and they aren’t as qualified.

Non degree holders are less likely to progress and in many companies

Actually the majority of non degree holders I know actually have their own company.

How much they earn is down to how many hours they put in. Eventually they will employ people and charge their services out or diversify into different projects.

Not everyone works in an office.

There is also a disparity between those with "professional" degrees e.g. law, medicine etc, and those with degrees done because that's what you do - go to Uni. Those who take subjects like law or medicine, much needed subjects, will be able to get into a decent job and move on to higher earnings that will make their degree worth paying out for many times over.

Then there are for example many multiples of people studying Media studies as there are jobs in that field, and purely academic subjects like History of Art. I'm not suggesting that nobody should take these subjects, but there really isn't any point in encouraging 1000 people to graduate in a subject that may needs fewer than 50 new people in a year.

Then we get on to what I consider "non-subject" degrees. People who take a degree because it's something they think they may be able to pass and they want to have a degree any degree. I have seen and worked with people who think their degree means they should be senior to someone like me without a degree (Uni wasn't common when I left school in the 70's), despite a number of professional qualifications in that field and over 30 years experience - frequently these people hold a degree that isn't related in any way to the role, yet they think having a recent degree in e.g. marketing, or arts & humanities, means they are a better person at business or project management.

i think if we somehow divide graduates into career based degrees and others, we will see the disparity of whether it was worth them going to Uni in the first place and taking out those loans.

Look at the senior management team in the top 1000 companies in the world - what % of them do you think don't have degrees

No idea but I know a director of one of them and he certainly doesn’t have a degree.

He went straight from A levels into work in the field he qualified in and did a night school course to pass the exams.

He could have left at 16 and done the same thing. Just took longer that way round

Allergictoironing

I agree. Given that only 17% of university graduates actually repay their loan I would be interested to see which degrees actually have the most graduates who actually repay the debt.

Some people are missing the point that people go to university for all different sorts of reasons!

What about academic interest and development? Self fulfilment? What about because they love learning and want to learn more? To meet new people and explore different talents? University is full of clubs/societies focusing on a whole host of different things.

It isn't about getting a better job for everyone. Some people seem too close minded to understand this and think that earning the highest possible salary before everyone else is the be all and end all. People like different things and move at different places, shock horror!

Nice idea if you can afford £50,000 to spend 3 years of your life on pursuing self fulfilment usually at the age of 18.

But... it gets taken out of your pay before you even get your pay, and only then if you earn over a certain amount. It hasn't stopped me getting a mortgage, I literally never think about it. And I was the first year for the £9000 a year fees!

I have the debt and it hasn't impacted my life in the slightest. I get a letter about it occasionally, that's it. It's not a case of 'affording' it.

Nice idea if you can afford £50,000 to spend 3 years of your life on pursuing self fulfilment usually at the age of 18.

You said upthread that only 17% of university graduates actually repay their loan. So there’s no issue with affordability.

@xenia we know your son is a delivery driver, you mention it on practically every thread. Along with how many taxes you pay and the fact that you're a lawyer.

Do leave it out. I’ve read many posts from Xenia over the years, and didn't know either of these things about her. There was something about an island, but that seemed to be a running joke, no idea if true

There is affordable housing in the UK in some places now

Some people don't want to relocate away from their families

Some people don't want to do X or Y type of work or work unsociable hours

Some people don't want to rent somewhere small & cheap, to save for somewhere better

I've worked multiple jobs & long hours in various industries

I have no sympathy for people who say "I want, I want" but put zero effort into their end goal

I've made the sacrifices, I've put the time & effort in

Some people will remember lots of details about another posting and others won't or some will only just have read that poster on the one thread. I tend to forget most things people say on line. Yes, I did decide when I was 10 I wanted to buy a desert island when I was grown up and still have my little diagram based on how long it would take to save up for it based on what my father told me was a teacher's and a lawyer's salary (I assumed you saved 100% of your income and paid no tax....l.not quite right of course.....) I enjoyed it for about 10 years in my 40s in the Pacific - camping - 20 acres cost about as much as a small apartment in Spain.... I sold it a few years ago for what I paid for it as I wanted to use the money to pay off a bit of the mortgage and because people kept getting a bit close to it so it didn't feel private in the way I wanted it to be. A US plastic surgeon bought it and I can see on google earth now that in addition to the one room place I had built on it (literally one room) he has built quite a few buildings so hopefully he is enjoying it and preserving the ancient rain forest and trees.

The research on which degrees pay the best after 5 years post grad was published around 2 years ago. It concluded RG universities provided better earnings and STEM degrees plus a few others were the best for careers.

It’s always necessary to remember that some people will never use their degrees. My DD doesn’t use her MFL one in her job. However the transferable skills and other personal attributes that a degree holder should have elevate their earnings even if they have studied History or MFL.

But if you choose English, History, MFL or similar it’s vital to go RG if you can. Other practical degrees that are job related are usually not offered at RG universities. So marketing, nursing, policing, fashion related degrees and art/design are often offered at non RG or specialist colleges. It doesn’t mean these subjects should not be studied but earnings could be lower hence not repaying loans in full. With women you always have to factor in part time working as well which lowers income.

MSE has the current tables for repayment (or not) of loans over 30 years. Obviously guessing at salaries in 30 years time is very difficult! But here it is:

A degree is not a guarantee of a well paid job

Employment also depends on a person's soft skills, personality, willing to learn, willing to take an opportunity etc

You're quite right, BabyDues, but despite the spin they were sold a degree is no longer a guarantee of any job for too many
There'll always be sectors which genuinely need this level of education, but now so many now hold a degree that their value's been eroded - especially with the grade inflation which resulted from mindless targets and the need to "provide something for the money"

No doubt the rush to get folk into university was useful in massaging unemployment figures, but IMO it would have been better to focus more on vocational training, proper apprenticeships and so on, rather than pushing so many down the same route whether they were suited for it or not

plainsailing Young people have no god given right to have tax payers buy them a noice house in London. If you cant afford it then move to somewhere in the UK you can afford.

I am interested to know why a gas plumber would have particularly bad English? & good plumbers charge one hell of an hourly rate, its a very well paid job.

I think we do need some of the worst universities to close down. And we also need to stop giving loans for worthless degrees.

'Younger' people might be more lightly to loss their job during this pandemic, but its not going to last forever. Older people are more lightly to lose their lives during this pandemic and that does last forever.

Who decides what the worst degrees are?

Not me surely, since I'm just a snowflake who doen't know the value of ahrd work.

To clarify regarding gas technicians. I would like to think they can read and understand the safety requirements of what they are doing. There are few technicians jobs that do not require English. You have to talk to clients, explain things to them and this is why a certain standard is expected. There are always people who don’t make the grade, and, according to this thread that’s just too bad and your DS simply didn’t work hard enough! Does he want to buy a home Oliversmummy? Can he afford that?

Millions of people live in and around London. They provide labour for the powerhouse that it is. We cannot afford a ghost city. If you teach or work in a less well paid job, living in London is problematic. However we need people to do it.

I hate to be gloomy but older people were going to die sooner anyway. Just not quite now and in this way. That’s just a fact of life and death. We are so scared of death now. Lord Sumption wrote a brilliant article around a week ago about why death isn’t so bad because, for some, living is worse. I totally agree with him. We all need “a good life” and not a prolonged awful one.

Who decides what the worst degrees are? I would guess Michelle Donelan, the universities minister.

Millions of people live in and around London. They provide labour for the powerhouse that it is Which must mean they can currently afford to live their. If London ever becomes short of labour wages will rise so they can afford to. Supply & demand.

We all need “a good life” and not a prolonged awful one
For me personally I agree with that. But I wouldn't want to live in a country where the government decides who lives or dies and when.

I would guess Michelle Donelan, the universities minister (decides what the worst degrees are)

I sincerely hope not, Zombie; it's not often the wisest move to give a politician responsibility for something and then expect them to be objective about it

Recruitment has been my field, and IME employers decide what is and isn't a worthwhile degree. With higher level jobs this can sometimes extend to universities themselves, with those holding degrees from certain ones deemed to have no real degree at all - or at least, not one of any use to the employer

I think that’s about right, Puzzled. In general I think grads know where they are in the pecking order and a few months of not getting the high flying internships or grad jobs they adjust expectations. Most people do that with careers and degrees. It’s a bit horses for courses isn’t it. If you have AAA* at A level you might be looking at a glossier university and course than a CCC student. That doesn’t mean the CCC student is wasting their time if they choose wisely.

I agree, Bubbles, but adjusting those expectations isn't always easy if a Uni - driven by fees and the need for bums on seats - has sold them a whole load of nonsense

I've spent endless time with their careers advisers, but have never yet met one who's prepared to tell a student "actually, (insert name of huge company) thinks our degrees are worthless"

@Oliversmumsarmy: "I know of quite a few people who manage people who are much older than than they are and they aren’t as qualified."
Again, your DD might be a gifted genius but she's the exception not the rule. Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates didn't complete their degrees and they are billionares. That doesn't mean dropping out of uni causes people to make that kind of money. There's a saying in stats, "correlation is not causation".

@BabyDues00n88: "I have no sympathy for people who say "I want, I want" but put zero effort into their end goal. I've made the sacrifices, I've put the time & effort in"
Your success in life is determined by luck more than your hard work. I am very lucky to know personally people who are quite "comfortable" and I can assure you luck played a far bigger role in their success than hard work. Even if you ignore my thoughts as anecdotal, there are literally scientific studies that have come to this conclusion as well: blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/the-role-of-luck-in-life-success-is-far-greater-than-we-realized/

@ZombieFan: "Young people have no god given right to have tax payers buy them a noice house in London. If you cant afford it then move to somewhere in the UK you can afford."

1. They have the same right as everyone does when you request help from the state. I don't see you complaining about taxes being used to pay for people who would otherwise be made redundant or keep companies floating during this crisis. Either you believe in capitalism, darwinism etc. that mandates survival of the fittest or you accept that people have the same right as each other to get help from the state.
2. Just because you live in a place no one wants to buy in or visit (demand and supply affecting house prices et al) doesn't mean we all need to move there. If there were enough well paying jobs etc. where you lived, the house prices would be higher and we'd be right back to where we started ;)
3. "But I wouldn't want to live in a country where the government decides who lives or dies and when" You're out of luck then *@ZombieFan*, unfortunately all governments have that power through their policies (e.g., healthcare spend, social care support, benefits, and most recently, the provisioning of PPE to healthcare workers!)