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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the George Pell acquittal stinks (warning may be upsetting)

89 replies

viques · 07/04/2020 11:23

George Pell has been acquitted of all charges of child abuse by Australia's highest court.

The appeal court has decided that despite the unanimous decision of the original jury who found the surviving abuse victim a credible reliable and honest witness, the jury (apparently) failed to take into account the "evidence" given by other "witnesses" who ,surprise surprise, were members of the clergy , I believe one was lay, at the church where Pell presided.

Given the abysmal history of the RC church in systematically covering up decades of abuse by its priest, lying, moving them to different parishes, diocese and even countries to avoid answering their accusers, not to mention the cover up that the Australian government perpetrated over the abuse of child migrants (priests again in many cases) I think the verdict sends a message that some abusers are above the law if they have the right connections.

Pell has been given huge consideration by the Australian courts, including an international black out of news on the process of his appeals .

I wonder if such a pussyfoot approach is offered to either victims or indeed accused in other child abuse and rape cases.

The other victim took his own life. His family say they are devastated at this reversal of the verdict.

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 09/04/2020 10:35

To whomever said “he was the first to take CSA seriously” - you’ve got to be fucking joking!

The Melbourne Response protocol was the first of its kind anywhere in the world. It may have been flawed but it is undoubtedly true that he was first.

You have the right to disbelieve Pell but if you continue to believe that he was guilty in this particular case your belief flies in the face of the facts.

1forsorrow · 09/04/2020 10:44

The Catholic Church screwed up in spectacular fashion, the harm caused was incalculable and no-one with any common sense or compassion would say otherwise. The fact remains though that being a member of the Roman Catholic clergy, does not constitute evidence of guilt! Absolutely. If you looked at some events from my childhood I could easily accuse a Catholic priest and it would be quite damning. He was a sort of distance relative and I met him when I was 7. I was quite a serious quiet child and we became great friends. I used to go to church with him when he was preparing for mass, I would sit in the church and wait for mass to start. We would go on long walks, he would send me presents at Christmas and on my birthday. When I look back on my childhood he was one of the highlights. I have no idea why he bothered with me but I can tell you it wasn't sexual or abusive in anyway but boy could I make it look dodgy.

FlockofGulls · 09/04/2020 10:46

Wow I’m shocked by a lot of these comments. In my main network discussing this (Catholic, Victorian, conservative) nobody and I mean nobody believes George Pell

I agree @2BthatUnnoticed - all my Australian friends are depressed by the success of the appeal. There is at least 30 years of protest and information about the abusive culture of the RC church in Australia. I suspect people who've never lived there, just don't get it.

FishingPaws · 09/04/2020 11:10

Wow I’m shocked by a lot of these comments. In my main network discussing this (Catholic, Victorian, conservative) nobody and I mean nobody believes George Pell.

Interestingly, it wasn't Pell's credibility being questioned - he never took the stand.

He is loathed by everyone I know (probably a third (?) of whom have met him). Moreso for his cruelty to CSA survivors than the various allegations against him personally.

I'll certainly agree that he's not the most approachable of people, but whether you like someone or not isn't evidence.

The only people I’ve seen happy about this are right wing nutters (Bolt, Devine), pompous legal types and... mumsnet!? shock

Legal types - so people who are looking at this from a background of criminal law training? It's immensely frustrating when someone you believe (and in some situations know) to be guilty is either not convicted or has their conviction overturned, but the test of 'beyond reasonable doubt' is there for good reasons. When you have 1 person, deemed credible, saying 'he did this' and several people, also deemed credible, saying 'that's not possible because of x/y/z' how do you get to the threshold of beyond reasonable doubt?

He is everything Jesus despised.

That may well be true and if it is, he'll surely answer for it.

2BthatUnnoticed · 09/04/2020 14:17

The Melbourne Response Protocol aimed to minimise the legal liability of the Church for decades of sexual abuse of children.

It was reasonably successful. Why else do you think Pell found such favour in the Vatican, despite being seen as an arrogant unlikeable outsider?

He took “child sex abuse seriously” because it represented a risk to the Church (if survivors sued). Not because children were horrifically abused and betrayed.

His views are on the public record.

Hopefully he will leave Australia and not be seen here again.

Toddlerteaplease · 09/04/2020 17:59

I know people who know him and they all say he's a lovely man.

2BthatUnnoticed · 09/04/2020 22:22

😂🤣😂

CoupeCourte · 10/04/2020 00:49

Yup, most of the allegations won't make it to court. There's a high standard of proof and many victims won't want to put themselves through more pain at the hands of Pell and the church. As I noted earlier, he has a lot of resources and an aggressive legal team and a documented history of going after victims to discourage them from coming forward.

Pell is not a lovely man. I hope he goes and hides under a rock somewhere and the only time we hear of him again is when people win civil cases against him.

2BthatUnnoticed · 10/04/2020 02:51

Even Pell’s most ardent supporters do not call him a “lovely man”... may as well call Vladimir Putin a lovely man Confused Being self-styled hard men, both would consider it a grave insult.

That’s why Pell said that priests who rape children are committing a far lesser sin than a woman who terminates a pregnancy. To build his reputation as an unlikeable arsehole (and boost his profile in Rome).

None of the above is relevant to his guilt, by the way. Plenty of “lovely men” (so perceived) rape people. Not all arseholes do.

To the survivor - the vast majority of the community where this occurred (geographically, socially) believe you. We believe you, and other survivors. Many of us have left the Church and kept our children away. It was not in vain to speak out - thank you ❤️

janeskettle · 10/04/2020 06:15

He is everything Jesus despised.

Agreed.

And I'm Catholic.

Teana89 · 10/04/2020 06:25

@2BthatUnnoticed has said everything perfectly.

Scott72 · 10/04/2020 06:32

"The Melbourne Response protocol was the first of its kind anywhere in the world."

Although Pell was apparently motivated not by compassion for victims, but by a desire to protect the treasure and reputation of the church.

He shouldn't have been convicted of this crime, and I'm glad he has been released. It seems the jury was determined to convict him (this was the second jury, the first jury couldn't return a verdict) because he was an older priest, therefore he must be a pedo right?

janeskettle · 10/04/2020 07:56

The jury convicted him because they believed the victim's testimony.

prh47bridge · 10/04/2020 12:16

Although Pell was apparently motivated not by compassion for victims, but by a desire to protect the treasure and reputation of the church

I've seen that kind of assertion before but I haven't seen any evidence to support it. It may be true. It is, however, the case that part of the Melbourne Response was the appointment of an independent commissioner to investigate cases, the first such appointee upholding 97% of cases. It also led to ex gratia payments being made to alleged victims, although I sympathise with complaints that these were insufficiently generous. There was also a counselling and support service (Carelink), although I know there was widespread criticism that the support for victims was inadequate and that the whole approach was too legalistic.

Looking at it from the UK, the best source of evidence seems to be Case Study 16 from the Royal Commission. However, that doesn't seem to draw any conclusions. So my view is that, although I can clearly state that this was the first attempt to do anything to investigate complaints of child sex abuse and compensate victims, I am not in a position to comment on Pell's motives nor the adequacy of the Melbourne Response. The full report of the Royal Commission may give a better view.

The jury convicted him because they believed the victim's testimony

Indeed. All reports say that the complainant came across as very credible, despite the fact that he changed his story after the committal hearing to deal with the fact that parts of his original version of events were physically impossible. Of course, the change does not necessarily mean he was lying but it does reduce his credibility. The High Court and one of the Victoria Supreme Court judges were of the view that, however credible the complainant, that didn't get past the fact that the events he described were highly improbable.

Dealing with historic allegations of child abuse is very difficult. The complainant's evidence is likely to be unsupported and the passage of time may mean that their recall of events is imperfect. Their story may, therefore, be inconsistent and change over time, which reduces their credibility.

The defendant is also at a disadvantage. If the allegations are made shortly after the event an innocent defendant will be far better placed to say where they were and what they were doing at the time of the alleged event, and finding witnesses who can support their version of events will be much easier. How many of us could recall where we were and what we were doing at a particular time on a particular date more than 20 years ago and find witnesses to prove it?

I note that the trial judge in this particular case noted that, before the trial, there was a witch hunt or lynch mob mentality in relation to Pell and that, even before this, he was a publicly vilified figure in some sections of the community. This, of course, significantly increases the chances of a miscarriage of justice as the jury will have been exposed to this. Some of the posts on this thread seem to show the same mentality with posters who believe Pell must be guilty and will disregard any evidence to the contrary.

I don't know whether or not he is guilty. However, having read both the Supreme Court judgement and the judgement in his latest appeal, my view is that he should never have been convicted. There simply wasn't the evidence to prove his guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

2BthatUnnoticed · 10/04/2020 16:52

No evidence that the Melbourne response aimed to minimise legal risk to the Church? Holy hell. Its in the public domain, not a secret.

Pell has never pretended to be motivated by compassion. He’d probably take offence at the idea as compassion = weakness.

It’s unfathomable to me how some in the UK can be so dismissive of the trauma of so many Australian children abused by priests (a trauma only compounded by the demeaning “Melbourne response” and interactions with Pell himself).

Imagine an Australian saying that Jimmy Savile was a lovely man, unjustly victimised by a witch hunt, and that any English person who thinks otherwise has got it wrong - poor dear.

Both Savile and Pell may well be “innocent” (in the eyes of the law) of the many allegations made, by many survivors, over many decades. Pell “won” - and will live out his days in comfort.

This moment is less about Pell, and more about the survivors shattered by the abuse he helped to hide (they had to sign punitive NDAs in orders to receive a small payment).

Those survivors matter. I believe and support them. A majority of Victorians do. The Premier does. I hope they are all okay, this Easter weekend.

prh47bridge · 10/04/2020 17:32

Pell has never pretended to be motivated by compassion. He’d probably take offence at the idea as compassion = weakness

Pell has said he grieves for Ballarat and prays daily for victims whose lives have been shattered by the Catholic Church's scourge of sexual abuse. He has said, "I have never lacked any compassion for victims, sometimes, unfortunately I have failed to express myself adequately". You may not believe him but to say he hasn't claimed to be motivated by compassion is clearly wrong.

You may be right that his motivation in setting up the Melbourne Response was to protect the church but I have not seen any evidence to support that view. If the Royal Commission finds that to have been the motive I have no reason to disagree with them. Equally, if they find it to have been a genuine, but flawed, attempt to help victims I have no reason to disagree with that conclusion either.

they had to sign punitive NDAs in orders to receive a small payment

According to the information I've found, NDAs were never used by the Melbourne Response. It appears they were initially used by Towards Healing.

It’s unfathomable to me how some in the UK can be so dismissive of the trauma of so many Australian children abused by priests

As an abuse victim myself I am not in any way dismissive of the trauma of any child abuse victim. However, that doesn't mean we should jail people when there isn't enough evidence to prove their guilt.

Those survivors matter

I agree.

TealWater · 10/04/2020 18:40

As the daughter of a man who was abused by a Marist brother at an orphanage (not Pell), I feel devastated and really depressed. When my father tried prosecuting the priest who abused him (the priest kept playing a Skase and arriving in a mask and wheelchair, and with heart problems - priest kept 'having episodes' and the judge eventually let him off 'too old'! . Sad ) a parent there said they had told Pell about the abuse of their 8 year old son by a priest. Want to know what Pell's response was? Pell said that the (eight years old!) boy 'must have led [the priest] him on'! That was his honest response. That an 8 year old boy, must have 'led on' an older priest!
Pell did it. There is no doubt, the church money got him off. Grown men do not lie about these things, believe me.

TealWater · 10/04/2020 18:44

prh47bridge Other church members said sometimes there were several minutes before he would appear after the service.

The victim who committed suicide and denied he was abused, is extremely common. My father, too, denied he was abused. He told my mother and I, 25 years into their marriage. Victims of domestic violence lie and said they 'fell down the stairs'. A victim denying abuse is EXTREMELY common.

TealWater · 10/04/2020 18:47

FishingPaws That's going to be interesting because if I recall correctly, Cardinal Pell was one of, if not the first, Australian Catholic Bishop to start taking allegations of child sexual abuse seriously. I believe he actually referred complainants to the police which is more than a lot of clerics did (and not just in Australia, failure to involve law enforcement was a worldwide problem).

That could not possibly be REMOTELY from the truth. Pell is infamous for NOT reporting cases, and for hiding priests like Risdale. He is well known and castigated for doing absolutely nothing for victims. He even said he found incidences of child abuse sad, but "they didn't interest me". His lack of compassion is summed up in that line.

TealWater · 10/04/2020 18:50

The interesting thing is that the jury and the appeal that actually saw the evidence, felt he was guilty. The High Court didn't examine the actual evidence.

TealWater · 10/04/2020 18:56

@2BthatUnnoticed Please don't take a couple of his defenders on here that people support him. Most people in Australia, and most Catholics from what I've heard, don't believe him. Peter Fox (high up Detective with experience dealing with abuse victims, he also had something to do with the prosecution of my father's abuser) has said there are at least 8 other civil cases going (I had read elsewhere up to 14), and that a few might lead to actual prosecution, and hinted he may end up back behind bars. Another poster in a survivor group said his barrister has had people line up to testify against Pell.

He is free temporarily is the impression I get.

TealWater · 10/04/2020 18:57
  • line up should read lining up.
TealWater · 10/04/2020 19:00

You have the right to disbelieve Pell but if you continue to believe that he was guilty in this particular case your belief flies in the face of the facts.

On the contrary! If you continue to believe Pell is innocent, not only does your belief fly in the face of facts, but also of logic.

Scott72 · 10/04/2020 21:32

@Teasdale That's not how "beyond a reasonable doubt" is supposed to work. The bulk of (circumstantial) evidence suggests he is innocent of this crime.