Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

There should be full information about what resuscitation actually entails.

117 replies

OverUnderSidewaysDown · 07/04/2020 10:04

There have been a lot of press stories about older people being “forced” to sign DNR forms and understandably their families are getting upset.
However I think a lot of people believe that resuscitation is like it is on TV - pads being affixed to the chest, stand back everyone, patient miraculously recovers. It isn’t. It’s a brutal process that can result in smashed ribs, and for frail elderly people it can leave them in a much worse state, either dead or with prolonged suffering.
This should be made public knowledge, no dodging around the facts.
AIBU?

OP posts:
alloutoffucks · 07/04/2020 12:38

No we do not need people to sign DNRs. DNRs should be done after discussion with a medic and a full understanding of why you have opted for that.

LilacTree1 · 07/04/2020 12:38

I think this should be something that gets discussed automatically when you hit 18.

Along with a leaflet detailing basics of law and finance!

The worst thing, which I hope is in the past, is doctors who ignore DNRs.

sideorderofchips · 07/04/2020 12:39

I have tried cpr on a person. It was brutal and didn't bring them back.

Fedupandpoor · 07/04/2020 12:40

@Kazar99 Thank you, that makes sense.

NoMoreDickheads · 07/04/2020 12:42

No-one would be forced to sign a DNR. They would be asked whether they would want to be resuscitated if the situation were to arise. I know because my bestie is on dialysis and occasionally they're given a form asking what their wishes are.

That's all- though it's a bit of a grim thing for anyone to be asked to consider, it's in the person's interests to be asked as they may decide they don't want it.

alloutoffucks · 07/04/2020 12:43

@lilactree Why would an 18 year old want to sign a DNR?
I am 50 and there is no way I am signing a DNR.

alloutoffucks · 07/04/2020 12:46

@NoMoreDickheads That is the point. People for whom this is a medical need to consider should have already been asked and it being discussed properly with a medic. Sending them out in the post is basically saying, we don't have enough medical resources so please sign to agree that we won't need to revive you. That is why people are complaining.

Most older and ill people know a lot of people in the same boat. Unlike a lot of young healthy people they know how this should be done and they know that this way is about pressuring people into a DNR so medics do not have to make blanket decisions about no one over 70 for example.

NoMoreDickheads · 07/04/2020 12:47

The CPR doesn't fix any of them.The only difference is you now also have several broken ribs and even more pain for the extra few days you manage to live

@Kazar99 It must be worth doing in some cases or doctors wouldn't bother. Some people with CV could have for instance only their lungs effected so far before they have a cardiac arrest.

The liver and kidneys can often recover from acute failure, so people could be struggling with the CV and their organs be struggling a little, then they recover and their organs recuperate and eventually they're back to full health.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe · 07/04/2020 12:47

Brefugee, yes, apologies I accept that, you didn't say it but it is readily and frequently being spouted on boards like this. I think the media plays far too much on sensationalism and rhetoric which then winds people up who spread it all across social media.

I prefer to read facts without opinions in the first instance, once I've taken those in then opinions are great because I can separate the two.

I agree with Puzzledandpissedoff that we need to think about a proper information source once the virus is 'under control'.

I actually envy the people who can be more matter of fact about death because I think I was very much shielded from it and continued that into adulthood too. It doesn't help.

NoMoreDickheads · 07/04/2020 12:50

@alloutoffucks Sending them out in the post is a bit callous but I doubt that's actually happened to many people. Maybe it is people with severe conditions in which, as you say, it might be worth talking about in general and there mightn'tve been a time to discuss it yet.

I don't think having a letter sent necessarily amounts to massive pressure though, but I get what you mean in the current climate of us all being told about how much the NHS is struggling etc.

Trichinella · 07/04/2020 12:53

If you have an elderly relative in a nursing home and there’s no DNR in place they are legally obliged to perform CPR. There are stories (and I hope they are only stories, but I suspect not) of people dying overnight and staff having to go through the routine of CPR, because only a doctor is allowed to certify death.
I don’t think people realise the brutality of it either. If you have osteoporosis, you will have broken ribs/punctured lungs etc.

SpratsOnParade · 07/04/2020 12:54

Why would an 18 year old want to sign a DNR?
I am 50 and there is no way I am signing a DNR.

I think it's wise to consider it any age because most of the time it isn't successful and even if it is a success, brain damage is a very real and likely possibility. Personally regardless of age I wouldn't want to live with severe brain damage. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't consider resuscitation, only that it's wise for people of any age to make an informed decision.

Purplewithred · 07/04/2020 12:54

What people need to know is that the decision not to resuscitate is taken where that resuscitation is not going to work: either it's not going to get that heart restarted, or if it is the person will be so damaged they may only live a short time and/or with a much worse quality of life.

Similarly, intubation/mechanical ventilation will not work for some people, and if that's the case it won't be offered. If you are already on a finely balanced cocktail of complex medication for your blood pressure/heart stability/kidney support/clotting etc etc then throwing in sedation, intubation and a very nasty infection on top can cause a whole raft of additional problems.

Are you all familiar with what the forms might look like? Have a look at the ReSPECT form (replacing DNAR) or the DNAR form on the resus council website www.resus.org.uk/dnacpr/do-not-attempt-cpr-model-forms and www.resus.org.uk/respect/. Also look at coronavirus.compassionindying.org.uk/making-decisions-about-treatment/.

Trichinella · 07/04/2020 12:55

Also why are we so afraid to talk about death in this country. Death is inevitable, we can’t avoid it, so we may as well face up to it. This fear of upsetting or offending people needs to be overcome somehow.

AndNoneForGretchenWieners · 07/04/2020 12:59

I was devastated when DH signed a DNR, because it felt like he was giving up. Now, after time has passed, I understand why he wanted that, and although it was awful when he passed because I wanted him to be brought back, I know it was the right decision for him, as any attempt would have been futile and brutal. I think having the conversation when it's not a hugely emotive time is the best way to be able to talk about it properly, but that's not always possible.

bluegrasse · 07/04/2020 13:01

I made the decision that an elderly relative who lacked capability wouldn't be resuscitated. Like others have said it is a brutal process and future quality of life has to be considered, I'd make the same decision again if I had to as IMO it is the right one for elderly patients with poor health.

Trichinella · 07/04/2020 13:01

@Purplewithred I think the problem lies with the converse too : the decision to go ahead with resuscitation where it is a futile thing, or that the risks of complication far outweigh the benefits. The fear of litigation surely will be playing a part in that too- if there’s no DNR in place then does resus goes ahead regardless?

Michelleoftheresistance · 07/04/2020 13:02

Endo thank you for that very compassionate post, it's one of the most reassuring I've seen. Thank you too for all you are doing. I'm so sorry you and your colleagues are having to go through this with your patients, it must be shattering. If this happens to me or someone I love then I hope you or someone very like you is there.

EmergencyPractitioner · 07/04/2020 13:11

Agree with Purplewithred the Respect form is what is used nowadays. This gives options for how far to go with interventions.
It is much clearer than the previous DNR forms for listing what people want and don't want.

EmergencyPractitioner · 07/04/2020 13:13

www.resus.org.uk/_resources/assets/attachment/full/0/31453.pdf

eeeyoresmiles · 07/04/2020 13:14

Fairyliz- with CV as with other terminal illnesses, we give you medications aimed to ease distress, stop the feeling of breathlessness, reduce respiratory symptoms and ease pain. Unlike usually with drugs where there is a max limit, we can increase these far beyond these limits to the point at which the patient is comfortable. We can do this in a palliative setting, accepting that this increased dosing may hasten death.

That all sounds great, for someone for whom resuscitation is the only alternative and resuscitation wouldn't be appropriate. But the lines seem to be being blurred at the moment between the concept of a DNR and the idea of no hospital treatment at all. What about a patient with a DNR who might benefit from oxygen treatment? Will that be offered?

I think what's scaring some people at the moment is the idea that past a certain age or with a certain degree of existing illness you won't get any treatment, even if treatment well short of ventilation or resuscitation could actually help you.

DNRs are supposed to be discussed with individuals and, if they're not, sending out letters that are basically bulk mailings to particular demographics emotionally blackmailing them into agreeing that they shouldn't even have an ambulance sent for them is not the way to get them.

Talking to individuals who shouldn't have DNRs about how resources need to be saved for younger people is mixing up two completely different issues - what's best for the patient, and rationing.

I'm seeing a lot of justification of rationing of care on the basis that elderly people are less likely to benefit from being on ventilators. But DNRs don't exist as a way of rationing resources - that's something completely different.

If care is being rationed (which it's sadly going to have to be), that is fundamentally a frightening thing that people are perfectly justified being frightened of. Repeatedly explaining the concept and value of DNRs doesn't help with that. Sending letters mixing up DNRs and the idea of rationing, doesn't help. Sending letters to whole demographic groups some of whom might benefit from a DNR and some of whom won't, and mentioning how resources should be saved for younger people, doesn't help.

People should understand about resuscitation and DNRs, but concerns about the way care might be crudely rationed by demographic group are real and valid, and won't be helped by more and more explanations about DNRs.

LilacTree1 · 07/04/2020 13:16

Re 18 years old

You can easily be in a serious accident.

In the moment of mine, I was terrified that I’d be saved when I’d rather die. No such fun as seeing my life flash before me.

Unbelievably, I escaped the “life changing injury” but probably by only a couple of spinal cord nerves.

Especially if said 18 year old ever plans to get in a car. Or take drugs.

We have to stop avoiding these topics.one of mum’s friends in her 80s has just been devastated to hear that she ought to think about this. If you have a healthy injury free life, great, but it came as a shock to us that it came as a shock to her!

bluegrasse · 07/04/2020 13:20

.one of mum’s friends in her 80s has just been devastated to hear that she ought to think about this

My mother needs to think about this, although if it came to it then I'd be asked because I have POA. I haven't discussed it with her but I know already what my decision would be, she wouldn't cope well with me discussing it so I've decided not to as she's struggling too much as it is.

Mamabear12 · 07/04/2020 13:24

Agree with you. Most people don’t realise what it entails and that even if they bring the person back to life. They usually die shortly after anyway. This happened to my father. We wish we had known. No one spoke to us about it. It’s awful....

Astrabees · 07/04/2020 13:27

I'd agree with all the comments above, but here in my county they are using the DNARs to make those with one the lowest priority for all treatment, and in particular for ambulance response. Many older people with a DNAR have had hospital treatment for all sorts of conditions and I hate to think of them being left with a broken hip or other treatable condition as bottom of the pile. I'm advising those I care for to refuse a DNAR at the present time, the decision can be made if they become extremely unwell in hospital later.

Swipe left for the next trending thread