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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this statement by Matt Hancock is incorrect?

127 replies

greenback · 05/04/2020 18:50

From the BBC today: Mr Hancock said he understood that "people are yearning to know how long this will all last", but that "the answer is entirely dependent on how much people follow the rules on social distancing"

Bur I don't see that there is a direct connection between these two things.

I can see that the lockdown will dampen the spread of the virus, enabling the NHS to cope. It will also mean that the peak (of the first wave of cases) will come sooner rather than later. But that still doesn't tell us how long the lockdown will last. After we've passed the peak, the length of the lockdown is still entirely dependent on an exit strategy that hasn't yet been fully defined, and which is in turn dependent on antibody tests that haven't yet been successfully developed, or on social tracing apps that haven't yet been proven to work. China may have their new infections under control for now (assuming their numbers can be believed) but they still have tighter measures than ours in place and so are a very long way from getting back to normal.

Disclaimer: I didn't vote for this government, but generally think they're doing a good job in difficult circumstances. I think Matt Hancock comes across as genuine and honest. So I'm not making a political point - I just don't think this one statement is correct. Am I missing something?

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Monkeynuts18 · 05/04/2020 20:52

No, he’s right. Please learn about how this horrible disease spreads, it’s a bugger. We need to keep apart for now properly and stop it in its tracks.

If only it were this simple!

Justanotherlurker · 05/04/2020 20:57

It's not a problem with the government, there is a reason why it is a global pandemic, no national health care sector other than south Korea and asia stock piled resources and that was because of Sars etc.

If we ignore that these past 2 weeks has highlighted how easily the stasi had a regular supply of informants, most countries are flying by the seats of their pants at the minute, the average Joe getting their information via headlines and twitter can't say what is wrong or right.

Anyone even trying to hint at it being a government fault is along the lines of people believing the 350m bus issue, it really is that level of uneducated thinking.

MigginsMrs · 05/04/2020 21:01

I think it’s probably political manoeuvring. They have no exit strategy. If they have to prolong the lockdown then it will be useful to be able to blame us.

And the idiots on here clamouring for it are playing right into their hands. Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind

TestBank · 05/04/2020 21:04

It is the precise opposite of uneducated thinking I am afraid, justanotherlurker

PotholeParadise · 05/04/2020 21:31

Hmm, every country has been flying by the seat of its pants, you say?

www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/world/europe/germany-coronavirus-death-rate.html?fbclid=IwAR33CGnXwpjme_XVh2WZaVJmpXZHlfu8jLyk5pOTq8uJU2BUOL2HiAdoYQ0

A German Exception? Why the Country’s Coronavirus Death Rate Is Low

The pandemic has hit Germany hard, with more than 92,000 people infected. But the percentage of fatal cases has been remarkably low compared to those in many neighboring countries.

ByKatrin Bennhold

They call them corona taxis: Medics outfitted in protective gear, driving around the empty streets of Heidelberg to check on patients who are at home, five or six days into being sick with the coronavirus.

They take a blood test, looking for signs that a patient is about to go into a steep decline. They might suggest hospitalization, even to a patient who has only mild symptoms; the chances of surviving that decline are vastly improved by being in a hospital when it begins.

“There is this tipping point at the end of the first week,” said Prof. Hans-Georg Kräusslich, the head of virology at University Hospital in Heidelberg, one of Germany’s leading research hospitals. “If you are a person whose lungs might fail, that’s when you will start deteriorating.”

Heidelberg’s corona taxis are only one initiative in one city. But they illustrate a level of engagement and a commitment of public resources in fighting the epidemic that help explain one of the most intriguing puzzles of the pandemic: Why is Germany’s death rate so low?

The virus and the resulting disease, Covid-19, have hit Germany with force:According to Johns Hopkins University, the country had more than 92,000 laboratory-confirmed infections as of midday Saturday, more than any other country except the United States, Italy and Spain.

But with 1,295 deaths, Germany’s fatality rate stood at 1.4 percent, compared with 12 percent in Italy, around 10 percent in Spain, France and Britain, 4 percent in China and 2.5 percent in the United States. Even South Korea, a model of flattening the curve, has a higher fatality rate, 1.7 percent.

[...]

“There has been talk of a German anomaly,” said Hendrik Streeck, director of the Institute of virology at the University Hospital Bonn. Professor Streeck has been getting calls from colleagues in the United States and elsewhere.

“‘What are you doing differently?’ they ask me,” he said. “‘Why is your death rate so low?’”

There are several answers experts say, a mix of statistical distortions and very real differences in how the country has taken on the epidemic.

The average age of those infected is lower in Germany than in many other countries. Many of the early patients caught the virus in Austrian and Italian ski resorts and were relatively young and healthy, Professor Kräusslich said.

“It started as an epidemic of skiers,” he said.

As infections have spread, more older people have been hit and the death rate, only 0.2 percent two weeks ago, has risen, too. But the average age of contracting the disease remains relatively low, at 49. In France,it is 62.5andin Italy 62, according to their latest national reports.

Another explanation for the low fatality rate is that Germany has been testing far more people than most nations. That means it catches more people with few or no symptoms, increasing the number of known cases, but not the number of fatalities.

“That automatically lowers the death rate on paper,” said Professor Kräusslich.

But there are also significant medical factors that have kept the number of deaths in Germany relatively low, epidemiologists and virologists say, chief among them early and widespread testing and treatment, plenty of intensive care beds and a trusted government whose social distancing guidelines are widely observed.

In mid-January, long before most Germans had given the virus much thought, Charité hospital in Berlin had already developed a test and posted the formula online.

By the time Germany recorded its first case of Covid-19 in February, laboratories across the country had built up a stock of test kits.

“The reason why we in Germany have so few deaths at the moment compared to the number of infected can be largely explained by the fact that we are doing an extremely large number of lab diagnoses,” said Dr. Christian Drosten, chief virologist at Charité, whose team developed the first test.

By now, Germany is conducting around 350,000 coronavirus tests a week, far more than any other European country. Early and widespread testing has allowed the authorities to slow the spread of the pandemic by isolating known cases while they are infectious. It has also enabled lifesaving treatment to be administered in a more timely way.

“When I have an early diagnosis and can treat patients early — for example put them on a ventilator before they deteriorate — the chance of survival is much higher,” Professor Kräusslich said.

greenback · 05/04/2020 21:32

We need to get the case numbers low enough to start doing testing and contact tracing. That is what they mean. If there are too many cases it will be impossible to trace their contacts and test them.

@Worriedmum54321 that is the explanation that makes most sense so far. But, if so, it would undermine their initial strategy of introducing the lockdown very gradually. They have always said they needed to introduce the right measures at the right time, because locking down too early would risk people rebelling before the peak arrived, so it was no secret that we would be locked down for an extended period. The fact is that they also need to buy time enough to build up the testing capacity - so that underlines my original point that the connection between lockdown compliance and lockdown length is not a direct one.

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TestBank · 05/04/2020 21:38

Sadly the uk government actions make most sense if you were looking for a strategy to spread herd immunity and also move the blame for deaths to the victims themselves and the general public.
Lockdown but say one thing, do another (boris handshakes, dad to pub, mothers day debacle, races, football matches, no testing italian ski holiday returnees, lax lockdown rules, exceptions for jobs that can't be done from home)

Even more sadly, it's equally likely cockup as conspiracy

greenback · 05/04/2020 21:47

Another explanation for the low fatality rate is that Germany has been testing far more people than most nations.

@PotholeParadise yes, because they already had a testing industry in place. Most other countries didn't. So here, for example, the government needs to buy time to build one. I get that. But therefore the length of the lockdown is dependent on how quickly we can ramp up our testing and surveillance measures, not solely on how well we comply with the lockdown rules. As others have said, I think all the finger pointing and infighting between members of the public is playing into the government's hands and deflecting attention from the things that really will make most difference to the length of the lockdown. But then there was lots of attention focussed on the testing issue that last week, and do seem to be (hopefully) starting to get on top of it.

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LolaSmiles · 05/04/2020 21:55

My feeling is Hancock et al are trying to emphasise the public being at fault to distract from the PPE they’ve failed to provide the NHS and the general failings because of the cuts they’ve made
I'm inclined to agree, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

The running down of health budgets over the last decade is appalling. The lack of PPE is abysmal.

It still doesn't excuse the actions of a selfish minority who think the rules don't apply to them.
The NHS and health care staff need better resources, but neither the government nor the NHS is responsible for the stupidity and selfishness displayed by some members of the public.

greenback · 05/04/2020 21:59

Sadly the uk government actions make most sense if you were looking for a strategy to spread herd immunity

There was never a strategy for that. Herd immunity will be the outcome in all countries eventually, when a high proportion of people have either had the virus or been vaccinated against it. But that doesn't mean there is a strategy to let the virus go unchecked in order to get there sooner rather than later.

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hannabarbera · 05/04/2020 22:09

Lockdown should have happened immediately when the 1st case was confirmed. And people still being in close contact with each other in London on the trains? WTF is that about when the police are stopping drivers where I live checking up on where were going?

Sparklesocks · 05/04/2020 22:27

@LolaSmiles oh I agree, there are definitely a minority of people dangerously flouting the rules who need to be addressed - but aside from public awareness I think another angle from the government is diverting attention from themselves and their failings by concentrating on this

TestBank · 05/04/2020 22:28

And I give you ... the UK government's herd immunity strategy
www.ft.com/content/38a81588-6508-11ea-b3f3-fe4680ea68b5

Apparently abandoned .... or was it .....?

TestBank · 05/04/2020 22:31

It was only three bloody weeks ago they were using the actual words 'herd immunity'. It's a good job google exists or I would start doubting my own memory, the amount of denial there is about the past on these threads

AmelieTaylor · 05/04/2020 22:34

🙇🏻‍♀️🙇🏻‍♀️🙇🏻‍♀️

greenback · 05/04/2020 22:38

And I give you ... the UK government's herd immunity strategy

No, you gave us a newspaper headline which incorrectly implied that they had a herd immunity strategy.

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ZombieFan · 05/04/2020 22:47

Herd immunity is the ONLY solution, whether it is by vaccine or naturally occurring. It is the only way out of this situation.

The only question is how fast we reach that point.

greenback · 05/04/2020 22:53

Yes, it is the only solution, but that's different to saying there is a strategy to get there quickly by encouraging transmission. They are getting there slowly, whilst shielding the most vulnerable.

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ZombieFan · 05/04/2020 23:04

I agree greenback

Faircastle · 05/04/2020 23:11

The more successfully they suppress the curve, the longer it will take for the virus to work its way through the population. This is good for managing the demand on NHS resources, and hopefully will reduce the number of deaths overall. However, the more successful they are at slowing the rate of new infection, the longer social distancing measures (in some form) will need to continue.

PotholeParadise · 05/04/2020 23:14

greenback
yes, because they already had a testing industry in place. Most other countries didn't. So here, for example, the government needs to buy time to build one. I get that

Perhaps we should have started a bit sooner, then?

The UK did have warning. If I saw the news reports about a mysterious virus in Wuhan that seemed to have a long incubation period, asymptomatic carriers, and so on, then the government's advisors did too.

I never worried about SARS or Ebola reaching the UK and killing my nan, but I saw the preliminary research on this and thought 'hang on...' in January. I started preparing then, and by halfway through February, I'd prepared for us to potentially quarantine for two weeks. (And good thing too, because we needed it.)

I don't believe I'm brighter or better-informed than epidemiologists with masters and doctorate qualifications. They would have been saying the same things, but our government didn't take it seriously until the very last minute.

Polly02 · 05/04/2020 23:49

I heard this on the radio this evening and thought exactly the same. In fact my husband was shouting at Matt Hancock.

We - the public - are being blamed for this disaster. And the government is taking no responsibility for this at all.

Matt Spamcock is talking to us as if we were kids in a primary school.

And it's a load of bollocks that the lockdown will end when we all start to do social distancing properly.

If the government had ever got an inch of trust out of me during this crisis - they lost it when MH spouted that nonsense.

TestBank · 06/04/2020 06:50

Oh, is it behind a paywall? No I gave you quite a lengthy quote from the chief medical officer using the exact phrase 'herd immunity' in a description of uk strategy. Some of you have the attention span of mosquitos. Do you really not remember that?

TestBank · 06/04/2020 06:52

100% that @PotholeParadise

HunterHearstHelmsley · 06/04/2020 06:55

Its divide and conquer. I'm disappointed with the amount of people that are falling for it. Why blame the government when theres a nice easy scapegoat?

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