To be absolutely ecstatic that GTA6 should be coming out soon

[RonnieBarkingMad]

And think if people can’t stop underage children from playing it, doesn’t mean it should be outright banned as it’s actually a really good game for those mature enough? Anyone else a fan? There’s just something oddly satisfying about shooting some random square in the face and then stealing a car and making a getaway without any consequences

Previously software followed the method you mean, which is called "waterfall". But the problem with that is that is that it can take so long to "get right" that it becomes prohibitive. For example, fans get bored and move on, technology moves on or the company goes bust as it has no revenue coming in.

So instead, the method of agile delivery was devised. This means in very basic terms, deciding what is "good enough" to get it to market, and then constantly evolve and improve the product. You may see some websites stating that they are "beta" and this means they have delivered something "good enough" but are working on improving it all the time.

Often its the users/gamers themselves which provide the feedback to make the changes.

My comment above was for @RonnieBarkingMad

@gallusalice79

So instead, the method of agile delivery was devised. This means in very basic terms, deciding what is "good enough" to get it to market, and then constantly evolve and improve the product. You may see some websites stating that they are "beta" and this means they have delivered something "good enough" but are working on improving it all the time.

Thanks for the explanation. I’m not doubting you as you clearly know more than me about this, but I still don’t get it. “Beta” sites normally mean, from my knowledge, that they ask regular users to test out sites (for free) and feedback any problems with them and opinions on how they can improve, but not to pay full whack for them in the first place. And if you are already a member of a site, they ask you if you want to try the beta version, not that it’s forced upon you until something better with improvements come along. I just don’t understand how this is commonplace now but wasn’t a decade ago. I understand graphic improvements and more.. “stuff”(?) needed to improve games as technology expands but why are they being released now unfinished when they could be held back and released when they are finished, like games used to?

@RonnieBarkingMad

What you have identified in beta websites IS agile. They are testing (and improving) before full launch.

There are loads of reasons why agile is better for the company. But as I said previously, if Rockstar used the waterfall approach there would be even longer between games than there currently is. And they would probably cost a lot more - which means less people would buy them.

@GallusAlice79

What you have identified in beta websites IS agile. They are testing (and improving) before full launch.

There are loads of reasons why agile is better for the company. But as I said previously, if Rockstar used the waterfall approach there would be even longer between games than there currently is. And they would probably cost a lot more - which means less people would buy them.

But Beta websites are free though from what I understand and they ask their users or new users to try them for free and report back any problems. Not pay for the site and then report any problems after having paid for it, or for those that already did pay, make them be forced to use the clunky beta site still in improvement mode and only offer their users the opportunity to help them via their beta site??

Why did/has it gone from an agile to waterfall approach? (Not familiar with either of these terms, sorry). Games weren’t released unfinished before and as I mentioned it did also spill out to a blockbuster film recently. Is this where we are heading now and have to expect?

Do you work in the game industry?

@RonnieBarkingMad

No I don't work in the gaming industry, but I do work in agile delivery of other products. The agile methodology was born in software development.

You're right that websites don't charge you to use their BETA site. But they don't charge you for any site (unless its subscription obviously).

In terms if you buying a piece of software or game, yes you pay for their "less than perfect" product to begin with. But you wouldn't normally pay for the fixes. So you would get a constantly evolving product for the original price - which would be cheaper than if you paid for that product at the start. Plus testing every single aspect or feature of a product is difficult, sometimes impossible.

So using agile ensures "good enough" products are on the market in a reasonable amount of time. With the promise of improvements in future.

Can’t see it being out anytime soon as 5 is still doing well. I can’t wait though. Looking forward to the ps5 as well

n terms if you buying a piece of software or game, yes you pay for their "less than perfect" product to begin with. But you wouldn't normally pay for the fixes. So you would get a constantly evolving product for the original price - which would be cheaper than if you paid for that product at the start. Plus testing every single aspect or feature of a product is difficult, sometimes impossible.

Thanks for your reply and sorry for all the questions - it’s just a topic that intrigues me and I haven’t found anyone to discuss it with before.

That sort of makes sense but could also result in a backlash because I’ve seen loads of people slagging games off on their release because they simply don’t work or play properly. I know you mentioned in a previous post games would cost more if released perfectly (but how, if it only took more time and patience?) and get lower sales because of it (but again? How? A release date is a release date, no matter what date it is, as long as fans are waiting??) I can’t imagine any business sense of a product being released unfinished with promises to include improvements at later dates. I just don’t get it, when it could easily be pushed back to a later date and actually finished. I’m not a tech person though so maybe this is all going over my head and why I’m continuing to ask the same questions 😂

Tag for @GallusAlice79 for my last response even though they are probably sick of receiving them by now and regret responding in the first place

I can't even read the whole thread, can't get past the op not playing RDR2 - BUY IT!!! it's got by far the best storyline of any game I've ever played, and the gameplay was pretty good too. I cried buckets at various points along the way. It was like playing a really well crafted film. Online is a pile of horse shit, but the main game - pretty close to perfection in my eyes. The only thing i didn't like was there wasn't a whole lot of choice about how you compete missions and i do really like that in series like assassins creed where you can develop your playing style.

@RonnieBarkingMad

In terms of games, they have to get them close to perfect because people still want a good game. However, what the gamer sees isn't necessary what the company intended as perfect. Let's take GTA as an example. In the online version of 5, you can go into a club and listen to a real DJ. Now say back when Rockstar were designing the new game, they had originally decided that they wanted that in story mode. Along with thousands of other features. At some point, all those ideas were prioritised, and let's say the real DJ's playing in a club was cut because of the extra time needed to work with the DJ's - say it would take an extra week. That's just 1 feature of the game...from thousands and thousands. So the developer decides all the features that will go out in Day 1 - that's your game. Later on, the developer might add in that feature, or many other ones that didn't make the cut.

In addition, people who have been playing the game report bugs...so they update the game with patches.

If they put in every single feature right at the start, it would cost more because they would be spending money on the wages of staff with nothing coming in. So they would need to charge more for the game to recoup costs. In addition, the game might take an extra 5 years to develop. A LOT can change in 5 years...people might lose interest in the franchise, new regulations could come in that impact negatively on the gaming industry...it when just about idea that seemed great 10 years ago, is now out of date and old fashioned.

And in terms of bugs etc. there were bugs before, but people just lived with them as the finished product was final. Now we don't need to...just like your phone gets updates, so do games.

GTA is a poor example because the franchise is so popular and timeless...but that's not the case for all companies or products.

Does that make more sense? If not, there is loads on the net about agile delivery...that will probably explain it better

I second getting into RDR2! It is a masterpiece!

Okay, I’ll drop it because whilst I understand your (very helpful and in depth) explanations I still don’t get it. DJs in games would be a patch for an improvement, not to fix something released that didn’t work because it was released too early, I would have thought? But thanks for your posts, I found them very interesting to read from a behind-the-scenes take.

And I’m not actually a huge gamer 😂 the only “big” game I have ever bought was GTAV and that’s only because I played since Vice City and loved it from start to finish and The Sims 4 because I played it since the first one. I might treat myself to a new ps5 on release and think about getting Red Dead then but like I said before, I am craving and would prefer a Bully 2! It’s been simply too long and I’ve missed throwing stink bombs on people and hitting bullies in the face via slingshot

I reckon when you get rdr2 you'll kick yourself you didn't get it sooner

@RonnieBarkingMad

Ok, my final word on it is that developers believe that the negative consequences of getting a game to market (and bringing in cash) which has a few bugs, is FAR outweighed by the positives.

Not many games have bugs that are so bad they seriously prohibit game play. So they make that choice!

Definitely get RDR2, you won't regret it

GTA5 was technically great, but one of the characters was an unpleasant cunt. I just couldn't stand 'being in his company'. Anti-heroes need at least one thing likeable about them.

@Mysterian How dare you talk about Franklin like that

@GallusAlice79

Thank you for taking the time out to respond to me many times. I am STILL perplexed by the game industry decision to think and release games like that but I guess I will just have to deal with it 😂 I might attempt Red Dead 1 and 2.. I think they’ve been out for so long now that any former bugs have been sorted out and wiped out by now, right?

If you love gta I think you might enjoy Red dead. Kind of like GTA on horses, although I think it is a bit less satirical/cynical compared to GTA. I got really attached to the characters, they both have really good stories.