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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask why people think directors that take dividends are tax avoiders?

500 replies

Milo2 · 30/03/2020 23:01

Small Ltd companies are currently left out of the UK government funding. Why? The directors still have families to feed and bills to pay.

I’ve seen a few people on here rubbing their hands with glee. Saying things like ‘good it serves them right for taking dividends’.

Some have compared directors to those that avoid paying tax and it’s completely unjustified.

Am I being unreasonable to ask why there is so much hate for these directors?

Also would you be upset if you had no hot water or heating to find that your local heating engineer had gone bankrupt and couldn’t help you? If so, why would you hate them so much when all they do is work hard and pay their taxes just like everyone else?

OP posts:
Milo2 · 30/03/2020 23:59

I would love to know your story @PanicOnTheStreets85 Like, if you work and what type of company for? You have a lot of hate for company directors but don’t show much understanding of how much tax they actually pay!

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BreasticlesNotTesticles · 30/03/2020 23:59

But you're not paying NI on dividends are you? Either employers or employees. So you're avoiding paying the same sum as everyone else who receives a salary.

And therefore paying less in to support the very NHS we now need. But you don't seem terribly concerned by that.

ssd · 31/03/2020 00:00

At the end of the day, you took dividends to pay less tax. And now everything has gone tits up you want the same deals as those who paid more tax than you.
Stop saying why does everyone hate directors!!!
No one cares too much about people who choose to save on paying more tax as everyone is shit scared about how they will come out of this A. alive and B. solvent

And worrying about tax avoiding directors is way down their worry list.

PanicOnTheStreets85 · 31/03/2020 00:01

I would love to know your story @PanicOnTheStreets85 Like, if you work and what type of company for? You have a lot of hate for company directors but don’t show much understanding of how much tax they actually pay!

I'm actually a tax lawyer, so thanks for being patronising.

And no hatred from me. I just think you're trying to have it both ways and that wouldn't be fair.

Lockheart · 31/03/2020 00:01

The ignorance and misinformation is ridiculous.

Yes, you do have to declare dividends on your tax return.

No, the rate of tax on dividends is not 20%.

Everyone, regardless of income, has a nil rate dividend band. It used to be £5,000, it is now £2,000. So on the first £2k of dividends any individual receives, there will be no tax.

Dividends paid above that nil rate band will be taxed at 7.5% on the basic rate, 32.5% on the higher rate, and 38.1% on the additional rate. Which rate applies depends on how much other income you have received, and dividends are always taxed last (so if you have e.g. rental income in excess of the basic rate threshold, you can't switch it with dividends to get the 7.5% rate on the dividends; you will need to tax them at the higher rate of 32.5%).

Say someone had a salary of £50k and received £10k in dividends.

£12,500 of his salary would have no tax, as it is covered by the personal allowance.

The remaining £37,500 of his salary would be taxed under the basic rate band at 20%. This would bring him up to the limit of the basic rate (£37,500 this year, the limit used to be £34,500).

The first £2k of dividends will be tax free.

The remaining £8k of dividends will be taxed at the higher rate of 32.5%, as his salary has used up all his personal allowance and basic rate band.

The rates of dividends for an individual are slightly lower (7.5% / 32.5% / 38.1%) compared to tax on other sources of income (20% / 40% / 45%) however it is important to remember that corporation tax of 19% will have been paid before any dividends to shareholders are payable, so this cash is being taxed twice. Once when the company declares it as profit, and once when the director or shareholder declares it as income.

Changeofname79 · 31/03/2020 00:02

I do feel that the help from the government should be for the business and not personal finance for the directors though as the job retention scheme they have put in place covers that.

BreasticlesNotTesticles · 31/03/2020 00:03

But you've entirely omitted NI Lockheart.

That's your misunderstanding surely.

TheLakelandCatalogueIsMyPorn · 31/03/2020 00:05

If your dh paid 30k in tax, how much did he actually earn?
I'd have thought you'd have savings on that salary.

Sadly not. Two sets of parents to help and support and we are still paying off school fees (which I know I will now be shot down for). But I totally hold my hands up and say that we never thought there would be a pandemic that would totally change our lives overnight. We thought we had covered every eventuality for us, our parents and our children and that everyone would be ok. Apparently not.

Changeofname79 · 31/03/2020 00:05

Disclaimer here - all my clients are are very small businesses so they have little scope for having any spare to cover periods of non trading.

BilboBercow · 31/03/2020 00:08

There are a large proportion of men who do it to get out of paying child maintenance.
No sympathy for those arseholes

Calic0 · 31/03/2020 00:08

I do have sympathy to anyone losing their livelihood in these circumstances.

But I also work in small business compliance and many, many directors take small salaries and large chunks of money throughout the years through their loan account which they refer to as “dividends” without troubling to draw up proper interim accounts each time - technically incorrect even if they do end up having profits to cover it at the end of the year.

Taking a larger salary would actually reduce the corporation tax bill because it is tax deductible. But reducing the salary and taking more through divs moves the liability from the individual to the company.

All perfectly fine. All perfectly legal. But, ultimately, done with a view to minimising the amount of tax paid into the system by the individual. Great in good times, not so great in the bad. If tough decisions now have to be made about who is first in line to help, I think it is only fair to what people have put in (on their own account).

Lockheart · 31/03/2020 00:08

I have omitted NI, @BreasticlesNotTesticles, because it's midnight and I'm tired and I was trying to give a quick overview of basic rates of income tax rather than getting into the full nitty gritty of sole trader Vs ltd Co.s Vs PSCs and Class 2 and 4 NICs vs the various Class 1s.

I'm not giving an opinion on which is better, I'm just pointing out that dividends ARE taxed and NOT at 20%.

alloutoffucks · 31/03/2020 00:10

It is lawful, but it is tax avoidance. You pay far less tax than other people earning far less. Why do you think you should then benefit equally from measures happening now?

Milo2 · 31/03/2020 00:12

I completely agree with everything you have said @Changeofname79

I think we will be okay as long as it doesn’t go on for too long.

We offer services so it’s the kind of business that can keep going regardless.

If the money completely runs out due to other companies not paying us what’s owed we may have to go bankrupt.

We are good people that work hard, pay all our taxes and have a lot of morals.

We do not begrudge anyone anything in life.

There will always be people who earn more than you. Always people that earn less than you.

Personally I grew up in a house with nothing. There was no central heating. It was freezing and my mum would go crazy if I even asked her for £1 for non-school uniform day. It was tough.

We’ve worked hard to get our business off of the ground and we are hardly rich now! Just surviving on okay wages. (In luxury compared to my childhood though!).

I believe in karma and I know we will be okay. I have come from nothing so I can easily go back to that. It’s just my child I feel sorry for if she has to witness it too. I hoped for better for her.

OP posts:
maddening · 31/03/2020 00:12

If directors are salaried (other than dividends) can they not get furloughed like the rest of the salaroed staff?

BreasticlesNotTesticles · 31/03/2020 00:13

But ultimately you receive more in your hand, or bank account, in dividends than salary.

So you are avoiding paying full contributions to the state that would've been due on a salary.

Lockheart it is indeed late, but it's not tax that people avoid via dividends. It's NI. And that's why directors choice to receive payment in this way.

MrsJoshNavidi · 31/03/2020 00:13

My self employed NDN Director pays his wife a salary just below the tax threshold for doing "admin". There's another way of avoiding paying tax. She does jack shit! She's at home every day, or at the beauticians.

alloutoffucks · 31/03/2020 00:13

@TheLakelandCatalogueIsMyPorn Sorry but if you are paying £30k tax and you have no savings, then I think you have made some terrible financial decisions. That has been your choice. No one knew there was a pandemic coming, but things can strike out of the blue that you could not foresee.
Our household income is £40-£45k a year and we have always saved.

Milo2 · 31/03/2020 00:16

I’m really tired now too @Lockheart Grin I feel like I’m gibberish rubbish! It’s all true but still I’m exhausted from it all! If you’ve been at rick bottom it’s not actually that hard to go there again and work your way back up!

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Changeofname79 · 31/03/2020 00:16

@Milo2 I really hope it all works out for you! Scary times Sad

Milo2 · 31/03/2020 00:16

Yes they can @maddening and that will be our first step!

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Milo2 · 31/03/2020 00:19

Thank you! @Changeofname79 I’ve got a funny feeling it’s all going to work out just fine! I’ll come back on the thread and let you know in a few months! Smile

The same goes for you. I’m
guessing accountants are super busy at the mo?

OP posts:
Milo2 · 31/03/2020 00:20

@MrsJoshNavidi That’s common but guess what - none of the directors in our company even do that!

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Justajot · 31/03/2020 00:22

I think the key difference is NI. Directors often pay themselves a salary that is sufficient to create an NI record but low enough not to pay NI. They then pay themselves the rest in dividends which creates a lower tax bill overall, primarily through avoiding NI. Isn't this the very moment when NI contributions should mean you get something back? So if you haven't been paying them then you don't get something back. I say this knowing that half of our household income is generated through this method - so we may well be in this position ourselves.

SuburbanFraggle · 31/03/2020 00:26

You gambled by not having savings. Everyone would love to spend down to the last penny.

You decided not to have a buffer when you knew your circumstances were such that if anything drastic happened (outside what your life insurance- income protection covered) you'd be fucked.

Now the worst has happened, you gambled and lost. Sorry it happened but that's it.

Most of the time when we take risks there isn't a disaster; looking down for a second to change car radio station and are inattentive for a second; decide to stretch your budget so your children have the best education; decide to walk in that car park that gives you the creeps; driving when you're a bit sleepy because the night before you tossed and turned.

Most of the time, nothing happens but when it does it's disastrous.

Most of us here haven't gambled in the exact same way but have made life changing gambles and are just lucky they didn't have a life changing outcome.