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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

'Stay local to exercise' is rubbish

655 replies

ThePants999 · 27/03/2020 18:56

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52062209

Taking public transport to start your exercise is obviously counterproductive.

Driving to somewhere where loads of other people are also going to exercise is not exactly ideal.

Driving to somewhere in the middle of nowhere to go for a walk? Not only is that perfectly safe, I'm going to assert that it's BETTER than walking from your house, especially if you live in a built-up area.

AIBU? And if I'm being U - why? How am I endangering anyone by going out to the countryside by car instead of walking round my town?

OP posts:
beeflin · 29/03/2020 13:11

There are not many accidents, and there will be far fewer risks when there are so few journeys. As for petrol, just use what you've got till you're about to run out.

cologne4711 · 29/03/2020 13:30

I don't know why people keep quoting France. MN is a UK website and most of its users are in the UK, so the law that matters is that of the UK where we don't currently have legal restrictions on where you can do your exercise, just guidance to keep it local. Driving 40 miles is absurd. But so is assuming that everyone can go out for a walk from their homes - they can't.

Ethelfleda · 29/03/2020 13:42

I agree sudokuqueen

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 29/03/2020 14:08

Also, I've got a maths degree,

Oh good.

So there is some hope that you will understand this if I provide the numbers.

The UK has been at max testing capacity for about two weeks now. This means that even if everyone is positive then the positive cases are limited by the number of tests. The highest daily number of test results (not the same as tests, and presumably lagged by 48 hours or so) has been 8911.

The NHS announced an increase in testing capacity on 11 March. www.england.nhs.uk/2020/03/nhs-to-ramp-up-coronavirus-testing-labs/ In the following week the number of tests was 2.65x that of the week to 11 March.

Therefore without any increase in the number of infections you would expect an 'exponential' rise in the number of reported infections, IF the testing is done at random.

Clearly the testing is not random, but as of 28th February, only 0.2% of all tests had been positive, so in comparison to some other countries we were doing a lot of testing of people with possible symptoms (or even no symptoms at all) that turned out to not be covid-19+.

We know that symptoms take on average 5 days from infection to onset, and that people are likely infectious before symptoms show, or without being aware that they were positive.

So as of late-February when around 0.5% of daily tests were coming back positive, then it's likely that much less then 0.5% of the population was infected at the relative point (since it's reasonable to assume that the testing was much better than random). This is why all those people who said they thought they had covid-19 in November or whatever are certainly wrong. It's highly infectious and vast numbers of people would have caught it.

Anyway as we got into early March, around 3% of results were coming back positive. At that point we were I think still tracing travellers and their contacts.

By the 11th March announcement of testing expansion, 7% of daily results were positive and we had uncontrolled local transmission. But, still, 93% of those tested did NOT have covid-19, which is a pretty big proportion considering that we were only testing a small proportion of those wanting tests.

Where we are now is that 36% of the latest test cohort were positive, up from 33% the previous day. This is the highest daily % yet, but as I observed in my previous post, as the number of people with severe symptoms indicative of possible covid-19 increases then unless testing increases (it hasn't), then a higher % of those tested will be positive with no underlying increase in infections.

In other words, in late February people were being tested simply because they had contact with an infected person or had been to a bad area, with NO symptoms, and now, to put it bluntly, they are being tested because they are dead, and we need to know the cause.

I.e. in late-February less (probably much less) than 0.5% of the population was infected with covid-19, and we knew this because we had a test that was likely considerably better than random in selecting its subjects.

We know that 36% of yesterday's tests, which is therefore the upper bound for the infected population, but in reality it should be much lower than that, since testing resources are concentrated in hotspots.

For example, London is horrible infected with close to 1000 confirmed cases /million in many boroughs (Southwark, Lambeth), four times higher than Surrey or Hertfordshire, whereas Hull has just 20 confimed cases per million. Of course this might reflect testing to an extent.

It might be that movement restrictions (e.g., students stay at university, Telegraph journalists stay in London and don't go their second home) mean that some areas avoid largescale infection, when combined with the shutting down of restaurants, etc.

So it does make sense to stop people travelling long distances for whatever reason, but it also follows that infection rates are clearly very high in London so it is both lawful and sensible if you are trying to avoid infection to drive somewhere away from crowds rather than exercise outside your flat.

Anyway as far as exponential growth goes, the data are insufficient to draw conclusions given sampling bias, and especially when you consider that it's possible that certain areas are already saturated while others are at early stages in growth. These latter places may experience similar growth to the UK as a whole - you have a handful of cases in a particular area, and they spread to others via supermarkets, etc. until a large % of the population is infected. This will be true if the virus is as infectious as feared, but at the very least current strategies delay that process such that by the time it's a major problem around say Hull, others parts of the country have more capacity.

'Stay local to exercise' is rubbish
Stayinghome · 29/03/2020 14:11

Far too many people think they are special.

Thewarrenerswife · 29/03/2020 14:15

Why quarantine yourself more than you need to? It’s okay while it’s all a novelty, saying don’t do anything other than walk outside your front door. But how long do you think people will do that for before they get manic? Look at what’s happening in Italy now?! They’re facing not just the pandemic, but also civil unrest. The government know this, which is why there guidelines are loose. There is no extra danger from getting into your car and driving a few miles for somewhere safe to walk. Touching gates and fencing is no more dangerous than touching groceries at the shops, or handling packages from the courier. Anyone blame enough to open a gate with a bare hand and not sanitize is already spreading everything everywhere at the supermarket and pharmacy. When asked directly the PM and Matt Hancock both said there was no problem with driving to a safe place to exercise. MN curtain twitchers think they know better? Well there’s a surprise Hmm

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 29/03/2020 14:16

Of course this might reflect testing to an extent.

I.e. the number of tests conducted.

Things are likely even worse for the hotspots than the relative numbers suggest - if there are 1000 positive tests/million in parts of London then that doesn't tell us much without knowing if testing works the same way across the country. E.g., Hull has had 5 positive tests of which at least 2 are hospital staff. You'd expect them to be more able/willing to test those patients in contact with them considering E Yorkshire, NE Lincs, etc. all have low numbers.

Whereas in London where it's overrun, they can't test most infectious people.

Haplap · 29/03/2020 14:51

@ShootsFruitsAndLeaves. Wow, you really are not reading anything but your own false reasoning. The sampling does not affect the growth rate... Let's try again:

So long as the fraction of actual cases being detected does not change (and it hasn't), this does not affect any inference we can make about the growth rate.

35% growth is still 35% growth, whether we measure 100% of the cases or 50%.

Come on, read back what you've written and realise you're getting distracted by sampling that isn't relevant to the modeling of the exponential growth rate. I think you know this really, but are struggling to lose face. It's only Mumsnet, relax.

Libloo · 29/03/2020 15:08

What part of stay at home don't some people understand, the majority of people are doing what those who know best are telling us to do, but as always tthere are those who through selfishness and disregard for others sutch as Drs Nurses Paramedics etc. these selfless people risk their health and the grief of there loved ones where they do die, while the selfish ones will have the ordacity to run to the NHS should they catch the virus, stay away from remote areas will you help the farmers if they get sick? no you will walk away totally oblivious to the harm you've caused for all our sakes stay home.

Amotherof6 · 29/03/2020 15:30

There are so many people that want to go out in their car and drive somewhere to exercise... so many special people who can't understand that if we all follow the basic rules:

  1. The virus spread will slow right down.
  2. You will avoid using petrol, the roads/having a car accident/breakdown etc
  3. If 2 applies you might put a further (unnecessary burden on the NHS)
  4. It isn't forever!
Why don't all you whinge bags set up a thread where you can all trivial finds things to post about whilst the country is going through a really tough time... me me me brigade honestly stop moaning
BelleSausage · 29/03/2020 15:51

I live in a beautiful country village in the rolling countryside. Our population is up to 70% over 65%- lots of care homes and retirement communities (they’ve helpfully just built another one).

Last Saturday the village was packed with tourists driving in from other areas. Usually it is mostly foreign tourists and the village had started to get quieter.

Which is GOOD! We only have one shop, a butchers and a deli who are all working flat out- with the parish council to deliver food to the vulnerable (bloody loads of deliveries). We don’t need thousands of dog walkers, families and day trippers.

People are still turning up to holiday cottages. GO AWAY! The local hospital is already a hotspot and it is 40 mins away. It is a twenty minute wait for an ambulance at the best of times and the local roads are accident black spots because of motorcycles.

Stay home!

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 29/03/2020 15:53

So long as the fraction of actual cases being detected does not change (and it hasn't), this does not affect any inference we can make about the growth rate.

That's not a correct assumption.

As I pointed out, at the start of the process we are testing contacts of infected individuals and/or those returning from areas with local infection. We do this even if they are asymptomatic.

Thus at the beginning of the process we are testing a much higher proportion of the infected proportion. Not all of it, because there are people getting infected on the plane from Berlin because they sat behind someone who just came from Milan or whatever.

As a very simple example if we had 2 positive cases on 31 January then it's reasonably likely that that's the entire infected population of the UK. Then we test everyone in contact with them, and for a while we have no new infections, until people start arriving in number from other places that have had (even) weaker testing programs.

At some point our testing starts picking up cases we are unable to trace to others. Not long after that there are many people with covid-19 symptoms who are not being tested at all, and are simply told to self-isolate, because we know very clearly that most cases do not require hospitalization.

35% growth is still 35% growth, whether we measure 100% of the cases or 50%.

We aren't measuring a fixed % of the cases. In the beginning we are measuring close to 100% of the cases. As time goes on we are only measuring those in intensive care, or the deceased, because our testing has not scaled with the infection rate.

The new results were just published and it was 2433 positives from 6961, a small improvement on the day before, which was 2510 from 6999.

We have been testing around 7000 daily for more than a week.

It should be blindingly obvious that as there is a lag between infection and symptoms and then a further lag to hospitalization, that if our testing capacity is severely limited (it is, just 0.01% of the population daily), then UNLESS our testing is random, which it most certainly is NOT, then as the infection rate increases, it becomes increasingly likely to find people positive over and above the rate of increase in the population.

Consider the following:

10% of the infected require hospitalization, 7 days from infection, and 100% of the hospitalized population requires testing, and that the proportion of the population that is infected increases until it reaches a peak. In addition, there are are a relatively fixed number of people with other acute respiratory infections, also requiring daily testing.

So for example if infections rise by x% daily, and you have hospitalizations lagging that by 7 days, then it follows that 10% (or whatever the figure is) of the people infected 7 days ago will be admitted to hospital today.

We've already established that in the early stages we tested most suspect cases and delayed the pandemic. But in the last few weeks we have NO IDEA who is infected. It's no longer the businessman who just came back from China, as was the advice in late February, but literally anyone.

So as the pandemic develops there are increasingly many people who are positive for the virus but we no longer care who they are until and unless they develop severe symptoms, in which case we admit them to hospital.

They aren't being tested because they don't need to be hospitalized, they are just told to stay home.

With around 2000 daily positive tests, it follows that if a week ago there were large numbers of daily infections, most of which we failed to identify, then many of them are now being admitted to hospital, and will make up an increasingly significant % of our daily positive tests.

And that is true judging from our data in that a week ago we already had 1000+ daily positives, which reflects a much higher number of actual daily infections. Some of those people infected a week ago are now in hospital and inevitably testing COVID-19+.

Unless we do random sampling then we don't track the rate of increase at all. And that's increasingly true as daily test counts haven't increased for 2 weeks - if the rate of infection is now falling then that won't show up because we are disproportionately testing the ever-increasing-until-a week-ago population of sick people.

The death count is a more reliable proxy for infections but tells us nothing about recent infections, restrictions on shopping, etc., because it lags infections by at least 2 weeks.

LittleRootie · 29/03/2020 16:14

There are so many people that want to go out in their car and drive somewhere to exercise... so many special people who can't understand that if we all follow the basic rules:
1. The virus spread will slow right down - going out in a car to a place with less people will also help to limit the spread of the virus

2. You will avoid using petrol, the roads/having a car accident/breakdown etc Using petrol = not an issue. Having an accident = just as likely at home or in the local park

3. If 2 applies you might put a further unnecessary burden on the NHS And so will people suffering MH issues from being unable to get out and exercise without stress

4. It isn't forever! True. But we currently have no idea how long it will last and i'm trying to stay sane and healthy (see point 3)

LittleRootie · 29/03/2020 16:18

Michael Gove on Andrew Marr saying the rules for exercise are to go out for an hour's walk or 30 min run. Once a day. No mention of driving into the hills for a ramble

Those aren't the rules as laid out so, as usual, Gove is talking shit.

MadMadaMim · 29/03/2020 16:21

The logic you use is sound, however the entitlement is indicative of society today.

It's not about YOU as an individual. IT'S ABOUT SOCIETY - EVERYONE.

The rules /guidelines are made to protect as many as possible and sometimes that means putting things in place that are the best solution for the MAJORITY.

This pandemic has really highlighted how selfish we've become

THE LOGIC ISN'T IN QUESTION

WE'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO DRIVE TO GP EXERCISING. SO WE SHOULDN'T.

LittleRootie · 29/03/2020 16:24

The rules /guidelines are made to protect as many as possible and sometimes that means putting things in place that are the best solution for the MAJORITY.

It's not best for the MAJORITY to be forced into the same limited spaces for fresh air and exercise, in fact it is the very opposite of what they are trying to acheive.

Haplap · 29/03/2020 16:37

@ShootsFruitAndLeaves - Prof Handley's assumption is correct. Look at the link and you'll be able to see how closely the UK fits within the trend of the rate of growth of it's European neighbours (it's a virus remember not an econometric variable). This, despite varying methods and policies for testing - Germany being an important case in point. Whether you want to accept it or not, a viral pandemic is a very big problem we all face with a huge loss of life and suffering ahead. Try and reflect on your own bias and remember as mathematicians, we have a responsibility to the truth. Here's that analysis (again) from Professor Handley of UCL:

nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/covid19/

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 29/03/2020 16:58

This pandemic has really highlighted how selfish we've become
Hmm. I'm selfish for wanting to up my odds of successful social distancing by driving a mile and a half to walk my dogs. I suppose I'm also selfish for spending almost an hour yesterday shopping (mostly queuing) for an elderly neighbour.

Like a lot of people, I'm just trying to do my best in the face of vague guidance.

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 29/03/2020 17:03

@Haplap I don't know what part of that contradicts what I've said, but my point really was that while, yes, increasing infection rates do reflect increasing infections, they don't reflect increasing infections TODAY.

It notes there 'Spain and the US are showing no signs of nearing a peak, whereas France and the UK show slightly sub-exponential increases.'

I.e. what you said about infections doubling in 3 days is quite unlikely to be true...

There is a wider point that governmental measures slow the rate on a population level, whereas individual actions at this point do not. That's not to say we should go coughing across the country, merely to note that our individual actions at this point have relatively minimal impact, because whereas ONE super-spreader can bring a disease to a new area, when you have hundreds of thousands of infections as we now do, it's purely a matter of slowing things down on a population level.

To whatever extent that is effective will become apparent within time, but in the mean time there's no need on a personal level to gold plate things.

LittleRootie · 29/03/2020 17:03

Quarter of a million have volunteered in response to Gov request for help with NHS. That's not the sign of a selfish nation

NewYearNewJob123 · 29/03/2020 17:05

The pandemic has really highlighted how peoole don't know how to risk assess but rub their hands with glee at the prospect of frightening/abusing/reporting other people.

RarePackOfLooRoll · 29/03/2020 17:07

I despair of the yeah but there's no logic yo brigade.

The current restrictions are to STOP the MOVEMENT of the virus.

The virus does not move by itself. It moves around on people.

By staying close to home as possible and MINIMISING moment as much as possible will REDUCE the MOVEMENT of the virus.

The more we move the bigger the potential of spread.

We're not bring asked to do much. Stay home. Stay local. One big shop a week where possible. No one's asking anything truely dreadful. We're all feeling the cabin fever, missing loved ones, habits, family our freedom. But the sooner everyone just accepts this and gets on board with it the sooner you can go for walks/bike rides 5, 10, 25 miles away.

I can think of loads of nicer quieter places to exercise than my direct locality but im doing whats being asked of me. I'm not moving the virus out of my area.

Stop trying to find a loophole/excuse/validation just suck it up. It's shit for us all. But just stop moving this virus about from place to place.

Bobleywobley · 29/03/2020 17:07

What if the whole population of the UK decides to get in their cars mid afternoon for a drive out? Or is it just you special ones that think you should be able to drive out?

LittleRootie · 29/03/2020 17:16

RarePackOfLooRoll

Are you familiar with the concept of VIRAL LOAD? Pushing people into smaller spaces is highly likely to increase that LOADING. Also, spreading the virus requires CONTACT WITH OTHER PEOPLE. The virus isn't spread to trees and grass, it's PEOPLE.

THEREFORE, THE MORE PEOPLE YOU HAVE TOGETHER IN ONE PLACE THE HIGHER THE RISK OF PASSING ON THE VIRUS. THE LESS PEOPLE IN ONE PLACE, THE LESS THE RISK.
(I assume it's you wanted me to put that in CAPS as you seem to prefer them?)

We're not bring asked to do much
Are you serious? This is the most drastic crackdown on the movement of people any of us will have ever experienced. We can't go out unless it's on the list of acceptable reasons, our kids can't go to school, hundreds of thousands of people are out of work and facing total poverty - I understand why but please don't try to minimise this.

susandelgado · 29/03/2020 17:28

I’ve been slated for wanting to drive four miles to my nearest beach , but what if.... I filled my car with petrol last week. If I break down ( unlikely, my car is 3 months old) I can press a button to summon help. If I get in an accident there’s an emergency button. I won’t be interacting with anyone. I’m disabled so won’t exactly be walking from my house for exercise. I just need to get out for a short time and it’s perfectly safe, unlike queuing in the chemists to get my meds . People who are self isolating can’t wait for the rest of us to be told that we can’t go out . This pandemic seems to bring out the worst in everyone. A friend had to leave her place of work this morning because of a fire. They were standing on the pavement with the requisite gap between them when a woman started screaming at them that they should not be standing around in the street. In full view of the fire engines. I despair 😩