To wonder when Black African etc becomes Black British

[Bobbiepin]

I teach in a school where 98% of the cohort are classified as Black African or Black Caribbean even though most were born in the UK and identify as British.

Clearly I don't want to take away anyone's heritage but can someone explain to me why we still insist on people who are not white explaining where they come from? Will there ever be a point where Black British or Asian British etc is a category?

People can't blame the government for inequality, if they don't help provide them with the information to use to discover where such inequality lies so that they can address it.

It would be impossible to provide enough tick boxes to cover every possible heritage, so though it's a bit of a blunt instrument, it's all we have.

And yes, no-one whose institution uses these forms has any control over what's on them. They're proscribed by govt departments. So "bring this up with whoever runs your school" makes no sense. Nor does getting pissed off with someone simply asking an interesting question on mumsnet.

I thought that black Americans were called that because their ancestors came over on slave ships and often didn't know where they had originated from. I wasn't aware of this so once asked a black American where his family were from originally and he explained the above to me. Black people in the uk know if they're African or Caribbean so they can tick that box, black Americans can't. It's one of the many awful things about the black Americans history that they've been robbed of knowing their origins.
Half my family are black British but would call them selves black Caribbean because they're proud of their heritage.

It depends on who is asking the question. I'm a social scientist and we tend to give the option for Black British/Black African/Black Caribbean. In that format, the latter two options are for those who wouldn't identify themselves as British (people can decide what they think they are, there are no rules). In other cases, these are asked in questions with separate answer choices (i.e. you can choose either Black African or Black Caribbean). In this case, it's asking about your ethnic origin (as in where you trace your ethnic background as coming from - are your grandparents Jamaican or Ugandan? Or where were you born?). That also has important demographic implications (for example, offering culturally sensitive services or creating access to translation services for those for whom English isn't a first language). But understanding the context of the question is important.

I know Gujaratis and Punjabis who describe themselves as ‘Other’ because they don’t see themselves as Indian (a British construct) or Asian. Self-identity is personal. You don’t get to tell others what to describe themselves as

It should be the familys choice to identify the group they want to be classified as

*Their accent?!?!

So if they were born here, parents were born here, parents sent them to school for say 6 years in Africa, returned to the uk and now they have an accent, that means that makes them less of a black British ( if that is what they want to identify themselves as)*

You're post assumes that being black African is 'less'. Yes, an accent implies you have African culture, especially if you grew up there, therefore you're black African.

It's different, not like BB is more desirable than BA. In the grand scheme of things this classification is subjective and doesn't matter at all.

All British citizens are british I'm some sense, but to me at least of you have connections in Africa you are also BA.

It helps with healthcare too. Some blood tests etc (egfr for example) are calculated differently depending on ethnicity. It’s good for reporting of rates of diabetes etc in different cultures.

I am half British and half Indian so put mixed white and Asian. But Asian can mean a whole lot of different things as @SimonJT said. I only recently realised that my hospital record had me as white British (I look white as my mums genes are clearly more dominant lol, as do all my cousins who are all mixed race too) so guessing that was assumption as always. No one ever believes me.

Accent has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity, nor does it make you more or less of a certain nationality. I have a Nottinghamshire accent, I didn’t suddenly stop being Pakistani ethnically. If I had a Pakistani accent I wouldn’t stop being British ethnically.

but can someone explain to me why we still insist on people who are not white explaining where they come from

Who is ‘we’?

Most (all) monitoring forms I have seen include black British as an option. People like to be able to choose their own identity. I agree with you that the black options should not leave out Black British, but people should still be able to call themselves the other options if they choose.

@SimonJT

Exactly.. As a black woman I can’t get my head around what the accent has to do with anything.

@bushhbb

I am Not assuming black African is less I’m tying to get my head around how someone’s accent even if they were born on the doorsteps of the bow bells but went back to Africa (or the Caribbean) for a few years and just happened to pick up
The accent can then, in your view be classed as black African.

I was born and raised here to Nigerian parents, and I consider myself African, not BB, just straight up African and if anyone was to try and tell me or suggest otherwise because I did not have an accent for example it would not end well and I would be extremely offended.

Accent is immaterial. I live near Bradford. So many younger people have broad Yorkshire accents. This has no bearing on their ethnicity though.

This is the list of options for self defined ethnicity used by the police.

About ten years ago o worked for a youth offending team in a very diverse, ethnically mixed city. On arrest young people were supposed to be asked how they identified their ethnic identity. After the first quarter of statistics an anomaly occiredm No or very few mixed race young people had committed a crime in a city of 400,000 people. What soon became clear was that the police officers booking them into custody was having a rough guess. Generally recording all mixed race people as black or white depending on skin tone.

Although to be fair, there was the officer who ticked 'other' and write looks like a dark skinned white man. The young person was of Turkish Cypriot origin.

HoxtonBabe. Do you have DC? If so what do they identify as (if they’re old enough to identify as anything that is).

My late DGPs were all Russian and came to the UK in the 1930s. My DPs were born in the uk. They identified as British though our family traditions, foods, culture was more Russian. One of my DBs and I don’t ‘feel’ British and none of us look it. I sort of feel I don’t belong anywhere but feel most at home when I stay with family in Germany. It’s complicated. I usually tick ‘white other’ on forms.

@saraclara I said the body which could be the LA or academy trust.

It wasn't until people from various ethnicities started questioning the forms did public bodies and employers start changing their categories.

@SimonJT no! Not at all odd to be British Pakistani- what is odd is that the DfE mandate different ethnicity categories for pupils from those of the teachers and support staff. That is frankly bizarre!

In the early 90s I was mugged the police asked his ethnicity - I said a light skinned mixed race lad

They said they didn't have that discription available! I reckon they do now!

DD classes herself as Mixed 'Black Caribbean and white British' - DH was born in Jamaica came over her at 11/12

I imagine DD's children with be Mixed 'Black British and???' i'll have to ask her!

When she was a baby there wasn't even a mixed catagory

Interesting thoughts, thank you. I'd love to challenge the government over this but I think it's more an issue of institutional racism preventing the research that would trigger the change. Some of my students have Jamaican and Nigerian parents so tick mixed but it does tend to have a mix with some sort of white and then other. I do fit into white British but I am 3rd generation.

@Snakeplant

As you say it’s complicated, lol

My eldest son considers himself as BB, my youngest (12) that is half Italian considers himself as African. My maternal DGM whos parents were from the Caribbean considered herself African as she settled in Nigeria but I guess when it comes to that situation she’s not incorrect as I’m sure someone somewhere along the line not to many generations back, were slaves shipped over from somewhere in Africa anyway.

@GrumpyHoonMain apply that to Kashmiris also, and to account for newer arrivals, Kurds.

The choice of ethnicities reflects the major groups in the UK. MIL is Hispanic. In the US that would get its own category, in the UK it doesn't. FIL is White European. DH and his siblings all grew up in the UK but all identify as different ethnicities. Their partners are all from different countries and so the children also all identify as different things. It's a debate every time we have to fill in one of these forms!

I’m pretty sure these boxes are supppsed to be about ethnic origin rather than nationality.

They should rate people by accents

Posh Scottish, scottish, posh London, mid Atlantic, private school, regional etc
It would be more useful .
Many of our Asian MPs are the product of private schools. So although parliament looks mixed it is mixed upper middle classes.

I always think by accents.
So, if you sound like a Brit, you are a Brit to me no matter what colour your skin is.
If you sound 'forrin' you are 'forrin'

Not that I actually care where someone is from.

However, I know people who are not white, who have parents both born in this country who still think of themselves as not British so I guess it's really a personal decision for each individual to make.

Seems to be a lot of confusion around ethnicity and nationality
'British' is not an ethnicity. My son (adopted) is British because that's where he was born, ethnically he is White English/Black African. I could be more specific on his African ethnicity.
Equally I am British because I was born in the UK, ethnically I am English with a bit of Welsh ( grandparents) or Scouse depending on how awkward I want to be about it.
I could also describe myself as White British and my son as Black British

@Snugglepumpkin That is incredibly ignorant.