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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To refuse to take the Watchtower and send Jehova's Witnesses away with parish magazine?

378 replies

Elasticwoman · 05/09/2007 22:34

They said: hey, you've got to take a Watchtower, it was a deal!

But I welshed on it.

Was I unreasonable, and what do other people do when the God Squad come to their door trying to sell God to them?

OP posts:
SueBaroo · 07/09/2007 13:09

largely, the argument runs that HP uses witchcraft, which is forbidden in scripture, and it's the 'good guys' using it, and thus condoning it, unlike Narnia, in which the witch is a bad 'un. It can lead to all sorts of occult involvement which Christians find unacceptable.

Personally, I don't like for my kids because of totally unrelated issues, and I'm not really convinced by the anti-arguments as a whole. But I'm quite happy for parents to decide what they feel is best for their own children.

designerbaby · 07/09/2007 13:14

While slightly waring of getting embroiled in a thread I know will end at someo point with no-one agreeing or getting any kind of satisfaction... ah... what the heck...

UQD and others - Re: too much Dawkins... Before holding this guy up as the spokesperson for all right-thinking rational people you should perhaps:

a) read his tome with the same critical attention as you'd give a religious text,

b) question whether his approach is based on the sound scientific principles he purports to hold so dear,

c) question whether his understanding of his 'target' (for want of a better word) - in this case Christianity, mainly ?is sufficient for him to tackle it directly and

d) look in to the view of those who openly disagree with him - I'd recommend Alistair McGrath - who happens to be (unlike Dawkins) highly qualified in both science and theology.

For what it's worth, I find Mr Dawkins understanding theology and scientific rigour to be er, somewhat lacking... to be polite...

As an example I'd also point out that Darwinian Evolution is, at present, a 'theory' that people choose to believe (I do, FWIW). It has a great deal of merit and some evidence to back it up, but is by no mean possible to 'prove' this theory beyond all doubt.

Most people of faith would feel similarly about their chosen religion, I think you'll find. They've looked at the evidence, and made a decision that this is the best explanation for things avavilable at present.

Not all religious people are 'dumbfucks' (and you can argue about the finer points of grammar as to whether this was what was actually said - it was clearly implied). Many have made an informed decision - one you may disagree with, which is your prerogative... but have not entered into things ignorantly or stupidly.

[duck and cover emoticon]

DB
xx

p.s. While we're doing pithy quotes - I particularly like:

"Everything must be tolerated but intolerance..."

UnquietDad · 07/09/2007 13:26

OK, brief answers:

"Before holding this guy up as the spokesperson for all right-thinking rational people"

I don't.

"a) read his tome with the same critical attention as you'd give a religious text"

He positively invites that. He is a scientist - he like people to offer evidence to refute theories. That's all part of the job.

"b) question whether his approach is based on the sound scientific principles he purports to hold so dear"

What's the evidence that it isn't?

"c) question whether his understanding of his 'target' (for want of a better word) - in this case Christianity, mainly ?is sufficient for him to tackle it directly"

I suppose this is the criticism which is levelled at him the most often - he is a scientist, not a theologian, so what right has he to write a book about the God issue? Well, he is a critical thinker and a rationalist. He does, again, address the issue himself - he only pokes his nose in because religion pokes its nose into science first. They are both exploring the same ground - what the world is and where it came from - so where's the problem?

"d) look in to the view of those who openly disagree with him - I'd recommend Alistair McGrath - who happens to be (unlike Dawkins) highly qualified in both science and theology."

He's already posted a response to McGrath on his website, I believe. I've not read McGrath, but the responses I have read lead me to believe that he merely re-states the ideas Dawkins has already tackled.

"As an example I'd also point out that Darwinian Evolution is, at present, a 'theory' that people choose to believe (I do, FWIW). It has a great deal of merit and some evidence to back it up, but is by no mean possible to 'prove' this theory beyond all doubt."

It's the current prevailing theory for which there is the most overwhelming evidence. It has a consensus in the scientific community. Anyone wishing to posit an alternative theory is welcome to do so, as long as they back it up with comparably rigorous and extensive evidence, analysis and published data.

"Most people of faith would feel similarly about their chosen religion, I think you'll find. They've looked at the evidence, and made a decision that this is the best explanation for things avavilable at present."

But there is zero evidence for the existence of God.

It's like the Loch Ness Monster. There's pretty strong evidence that nothing is there (600 sonar sweeps done by the BBC a few years ago) and some evidence that something is (a few blurred photos and anecdotes). There are theories on both sides, but the weight of the evidence is strongly tipped one way.

Gadocd · 07/09/2007 13:55

All JW are trying to do by doing door to door vists, is spreading what they believe in.

Are we as a society so petty/selfish/busy etc to turn them away.

If yes then this is indeed a very sad world we live in.

[they are used to it btw]

PatsyCline · 07/09/2007 14:01

Thanks for the link, UQD.

I am always polite to JWs because my BF's mum is one, so I have seen the human side of the religion. I think that Mrs X is utterly misguided, but she is a lovely, extremely kind woman and she worries tremendously about all of us non-JWs. It has really been hard for her knowing that her own family has rejected her religion. I find her situation very sad.

I am always polite, but did make the last JW to call giggle very nervously when I blurted out that we are a family of anti-Christs. What dark recess of my mind did that come from? (Patsy's eyes burn like red hot coals...)

SueBaroo · 07/09/2007 14:04

Gadocd, I really don't understand that post. You paint a picture of people turning poor, forlorn JWs away out of spite.

Yes, JWs are completely sincere in their belief, but why is someone 'petty/selfish' to say 'Er, thanks but no thanks'? And plenty of people are far too busy to be standing at the door chatting about armageddon.

Gettest thou a grip.

Gadocd · 07/09/2007 14:22

Okay, sorry.

mellowma · 07/09/2007 15:03

Message withdrawn

Caroline1852 · 07/09/2007 16:05

I have nothing against JWs nor any other religion, however bonkers. Life is too short. I do not think religion needs to make sense. A religion provides people with much needed comfort. Someone once described "the comfort of the gentle courtesies of the Anglican faith" and I wholeheartedly agree with that. Let's not overlook the good things religion and faith can bring.
I assume UQD, Krang and others (who's atheism is theism - surely?) - that you did not marry in church or Christen your children or send your children to a CofE or other faith school?

Caroline1852 · 07/09/2007 16:06

I meant to add
But I still wish they would not knock on my door at 9am on a weekend morning.

UnquietDad · 07/09/2007 16:11

Caroline - what do you mean "whose atheism is theism"?? Don't get it.

I can only answer for myself, but:

marry in church - yes, I did get married in church, but at the time (9 years ago) I did not have strong views on the matter, and DW and her family wanted a church wedding, so I was happy to go long with it. Wouldn't now.

Christened children - no. Despite outrage from my parents.

faith school - no way. We are lucky to have a decent school nearby, but faith schools are an abomination and I'd like to see them all turned into normal schools.

MrsSpoon · 07/09/2007 16:12

Krang, in answer to your question "if you live by Leviticus 17:14 and 7:26, why not also live by Leviticus 12.6?" this was part of the Mosaic Law that Christians at the time lived by but when the Mosaic Law was lifted this was said at Acts 15:28&29

"For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!?

Christians were no longer required to make animal sacrifices but were still required to abstain from blood.

Mellowma your comments about your ILs are lovely.

MrsSpoon · 07/09/2007 16:18

gobledegook I know religious Schools work differently in England but my DSs went to nursery in a Catholic School (the nursery was non-denominational, it just happened to be within the Catholic School), however the headteacher at the Catholic School said that we would be more than welcome to apply for a School placement and our beliefs would be taken into account and our children given the same consideration they would be given in a non-denominational School.

mellowma · 07/09/2007 16:20

Message withdrawn

MrsSpoon · 07/09/2007 16:34

Thank you Mellowma, that is really kind of you, sorry for encouraging you back on this thread.

mellowma · 07/09/2007 16:41

Message withdrawn

Caroline1852 · 07/09/2007 16:58

UQD _ I don't think Dawkins (or anyone else for that matter) has managed to explain atheism as being scientifically necessary - atheism is therefore a form of faith.

Caroline1852 · 07/09/2007 17:05

I believe you can now buy a t-shirt with a red A on it, letting people know that you are an atheist (I believe with a www dawkins link at the bottom of the t-shirt). Is that not like wearing a cross to denote your Christianity? I don't understand this at all.

Elasticwoman · 07/09/2007 17:18

Thanks, Squeakybrushes. I do not mind discussing religion in a social situation or a classroom or online like here, but being accosted by complete strangers on my own doorstep I find a little rude. Sad when they bring children with them. Mind you it's not quite as irritating as people who ring up demanding to "give" you a holiday (free except for the £1000000000000000 admin charge).

And while we're talking about minority religions, can any one explain to me why Church of the LDS (Mormons) don't have tea and coffee, but are allowed chocolate/cocoa?
What makes cocoa spiritually any different to a cuppa? I asked some young Mormon missionaries as they were walking along the street and they didn't know.

OP posts:
Pixel · 07/09/2007 17:23

LOL at all of you who think that saying you are catholic will 'ward off' JWs. I used to work with someone who was brought up as a catholic until she was 11 when some JWs came to the door and converted her whole family .

MrsSpoon · 07/09/2007 17:26

I'm trying to keep off this thread now too but:- "Sad when they bring children with them." - wish I could let you speak to my DS1 he has a great time and is extremely enthusiastic.

margosbeenplayingwithmynoonoo · 07/09/2007 17:38

I have to add a little story of my own. About a year ago my dh was out walking the dog. He was stopped by a lady in a car - he thought she was lost and wanted directions. Anyway, she asked him if he was a catholic, to which he answered no. She tried to recruit him to "the other side". He thought it was bizarre. This lady has approached him a further 2 times.

She caught me recently, and when she asked me if I was a catholic I said yes, then she asked if I went to mass - again I said yes ~(at this point I thought she would say "well done" and go on her way) She then asked if I prayed with a rosary. "No" Cue 5 mins lecture about this.

I suppose if I'd have said "yes" she would have found some other duty I am not fulfilling as a Catholic.

The other week my brother came home and he said " I've just been stopped by a woman asking me if I was a catholic".....

I saw her stop someone else on the street as well.

So it's not just JWs spreading the word.

So, if you live locally to me and you see a woman in her late 50s in a navy VW polo pull up beside you...run!

UnquietDad · 07/09/2007 17:41

I read something recently along the lines of "if atheism's a faith, then not collecting stamps is a hobby."

I'm dubious about the Big Red A T-shirts, but I don't see why it's necessary to "explain" atheism or demonstrate that it is scientifically necessary? Surely not believing in something is the default position, and it's the believer who has to show their faith is "necessary".

Do you believe in invisible pink unicorns? Same thing.

It's different from faith, because an atheist has looked at the evidence as they would with any other theory, and found it wanting. You don't believe "in" atheism despite the lack of evidence, you disbelieve in gods because of the lack of evidence.

This is partly why I don't describe myself as an atheist unless I have to - it leads to this sort of misunderstanding.

There are people in the world who get on with thier lives without any religious interference or supernatural element whatsoever. We don't give it any thought - seriously. A person of faith will be thinking about their faith all day and every day and reacting to situations in ways they think are appropriate for their faith. You don't do that as an atheist.

Religion is irrelevant to you, as football is if you are a non-football-fan, or as stamp-collecting is if you have no interest in philately.

It's just not there.

UnquietDad · 07/09/2007 17:42

margo - blimey, drive-by Catholicking! Whatever next?

margosbeenplayingwithmynoonoo · 07/09/2007 18:25

UQdad - shocking isn't it?

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