WIBU to request this of the school? SEN child

[Crazyhouse123]

DS2(15) was diagnosed with ASD and ADHD last summer. He has been struggling in secondary for the last couple of years, socially he has a lovely group of friends but struggles academically and with focus, with dyslexia too. His attendance is now hovering around the 50% mark for this academic year.

I had a meeting with the SLT the other day in the hope of getting a plan to get him back in. The school has an amazing place for students with SEN where they can go and work on things in a non-classroom environment. School have put into place DS being able to use this as a safe place when he feels an emotional crisis coming on.

The trouble is at the moment every lesson means DS feels like this. Before half term he was turned away from this unit as he expressed anxiety as "feeling achey" ...he has autism and struggles to describe the way he feels... and he now feels like he is just a hopeless PITA and I have not been able to get him back in because he believes that he won't be able to go to this unit if he needs to.

In the meeting the other day I suggested that maybe we need to work from the bottom up rather than the top down...in other words, instead of using the unit as an escape, using it as a base for all lessons with the aim of gently encouraging him to go to some lessons when he feels confident enough. He will not be getting full learning in the unit but he will be in school and he will be learning something and most importantly, he will be learning how to cope with being in school. The EP can work with him and hopefully over the next few weeks we can gradually build up his coping mechanism and get him back into most, if not all, lessons.

School however have said they cant support this as he needs to be in lessons. They have said we can do it for a week and get him back into school but then he needs to be in lessons. They explained that the unit is a last resort.

My arguing is that this IS a last resort. This is what the unit is there for. They do have other students doing this so it's not a unique request. My child has diagnosed SEN. If DS feels that this is time restricted then it will just cause more stress and anxiety. The school has not applied for an ECP and SENDIASS have advised that I can so I am looking into that.

I have another meeting with them today with DS. WIBU to push for this unit as full time? I get that DS will not get full learning in the unit but at the moment he is getting no learning. Once I can get DS used to being at school and coping with it I fully intend to encourage him to get back into lessons. I will work with him and the school to help him catch up. I will do what I can to help. But I can't help if he isn't in school.

Thank you for any advise and apologies that this is so long!

It's not about taking them personally. It's about seeing what goes on in a range

It's not about taking them personally. It's about seeing what goes on in a range of schools, seeing the good and the bad and the ugly, talking to colleagues (who have also seen good, bad and ugly in a range of schools) and taking an issue with claims that people in the system couldn't possibly know what the education system is like.

Staff in education are all too aware the good and the bad in the system. They're also fairly good on these threads at sharing this and don't thesnto defend awful practice when it happens.

I'm not sure how anyone can say schools don't care, don't do anything, staff don't give a damn and then also say "but I'm not having a go at teachers, why get irritated".

I find itswrong’s post makes me feel that I spent 35 years wasting my time teaching.

I was a SENCo and AHT as well. I fought for the best for my students. We worked with a wide range of SEND and as creatively as possible. I battled for resources, expertise, training and funding. I’m sorry that not everyone has a positive experience, but it’s not just to say that teachers don’t care about what happens to their pupils.

LolaSmiles, yet again you say what I think. If you look at some of education fora, you will see that there are plenty of posts from teachers who say that the reason they stay in teaching is for the time they spend in the classroom with their students.

OP, work with the school as much as you can, but explore the alternatives suggested too, is my advice.

I know it's difficult to hear, but pretending that it doesn't happen just makes it worse.

I know it's difficult to hear, but pretending that it doesn't happen just makes it worse.
Except nobody has said bad practice doesn't happen and you'd be hard pushed to find a teacher who hasn't got an SLT tale to tell.

It still doesn't excuse mass claims that staff don't care, don't do anything, don't care about the students, don't know about SLT.

School staff live the world of education day in day out and many agree that the struggles some parents have are awful.

Just don't suggest we don't give a damn about our students because they are the main reason most of us haven't left.

OP what you are proposing makes perfect sense, please don't doubt that.

As for using post 16 plans to motivate your ds, he doesnt sound so much under motivated as over-stressed, so I cant see that as being hopeful just now.

Wishing you both the best. Please remember that this is not his one and only chance to achieve academically. Yes it would be nice if he were able to make the most of these exams but it will not be a disaster if he can't.

helpful

Lola I havent said individual staff don't care. I'm sure many do.

But the organisation that is a school, as run by the LA or school acedemy and the SLT - that organisation ultimately doesn't care. They are not incentivised on inclusive practice. They are incentivised on data: attendance stats, results and stuff that make the school look good in the eyes of Ofsted and the majority of parents. And budgets too. So ultimately they don't care about a child that is "failing" and has the potential to cost them money. And that does result in bad practice and shocking behaviour- from the LA or acedemy trust, and often from SLT.

I'm sure teachers on the ground DO care, and probably feel as powerless as the parents. This is a systematic failure, not an individual one.

Porcupineinwaiting
I agree on over stressed.
I should have clarified what I meant by post 16. I was meaning if DC was in y11 then realising that they may only need 5 grade 5s (for example) might help reduce the load with school, give some direction and take the pressure off.

Itswrongtowishonspacehardware
Most members of SLT are still classroom teachers.
And part of the data does include inclusive practice, especially in new frameworks for inspection. SEND is a strand that's followed up, with expectations on class teachers. Under progress 8 schools can't afford to have sink groups of students (usually populated with those with additional needs, SEMH issues and vulnerable students) because when you look at the spreadsheets it costs the school too much.
A student who doesn't attend doesn't do as well as those who do. Just based on a crude data approach, schools can't afford to let a substantial minority of their students be abandoned.

I sat in a meeting where an SLT data lead did the number crunching (not because they don't care but because that's part of the job) and worked out that for one very vulnerable student who we'd put lots in place for and they still were unlikely to break even, we needed X number of others to overachiever statistically to avoid a massive hit on overall performance figures. Now I'm under no illusions that certain academy chains are prone to off rolling, but looking at the facts in terms of how schools are judged, it's increasingly difficult to get away with doing nothing.

It's precisely because of this side of things I think you're being grossly unfair by deciding schools (who are really the staff team) don't care about students.

There are many systemic problems in education. Many teachers would agree.. Lack of care towards children isn't one of them.

I think until you actually get the opinions of parents and children in this position, then it is not possible to say how THEY experience the system.
It's all very well for a school or a teacher to state how much they care and how much support they offer....but if the students and parents dont experience it in that way, then you are still failing. Like any public service, the opinion of the service user is valid and needs to be listened to.

I'm not professing to say how parents as a group experience the system because I wouldn't dream of deciding that parents were some homogeneous group who all think and act the same, have the same needs, access the same schools, and so on. To do so would be quite foolish.

I've also said repeatedly that school staff are also aware of the issues in the system. You'd be hard pressed to find a teacher or TA who says the current system works brilliantly all the time, and almost all would be able to share stories where it hasn't worked.

All I'm asking is that you stop insisting that schools (who are a sum of all their staff) don't care, do nothing and that teachers couldn't possibly know what SLTs are like. Give us just the tiniest bit of credit before making sweeping statements about our apparent lack of knowledge about the education system and our apparent lack of care for our students (whilst claiming it's not having a go).

Well Lola can I also ask that you stop insisting that my experience, and the experience of hundreds of others in a similar position, is completely wrong?!

Well Lola can I also ask that you stop insisting that my experience, and the experience of hundreds of others in a similar position, is completely wrong?!
Which would be fine, if I'd said your experience was wrong.
...But I haven't.

I've taken an issue with your generalisations claiming schools don't care, don't do anything, class teachers don't know what SLT are like.

And I'm really struggling to understand how you can confidently say what it like, until you have been a parent of a child in this situation. The system is utterly broken at the moment. Education for children with disabilities is like the wild west, with schools and LA flouting the law left, right and centre. If you're luckily enough to have a child who copes then you're ok, but if you're not you are utterly screwed.

This is not just my experience of 3 different schools, it's also the experience of thousands of others at thousands of different schools.

It doesn't even matter that you care about the pupils; individual teachers caring about my child didn't stop the SLT breaking the law and then lying about it to the LA. It didn't stop them sending threatening letters home when she was so anxious she couldn't eat or sleep, never mind attend school. And despite them caring, not a single one of them got in contact to ask how she was the entire time she was out of school, not even her bloody form tutor.

And my experience isn't unusual, in fact it's relatively tame compared to some real horror stories I hear. And I hear it time and time again at support groups, online, via my legal advisor (who is very busy btw!).

And I'm beginning to wonder if you even work in a school given the hours you keep on here?

@Itswrongtowishonspacehardware
You have described our experience perfectly.

But despite all that, I don't blame the individual teachers, because I genuinely believe people do their best. I blame the system they're working in.

Itswrongtowishonspacehardware
Not once have I said that sort of thing doesn't happen.

And I'm beginning to wonder if you even work in a school given the hours you keep on here?
I'm on maternity leave, but of course if a poster challenges generalisations about their profession and sector the only logical thing to do is question their career based on the fact they Mumsnet to make the cluster feeding pass.

hazeyjane There's a couple of schools in my area with an awful approach to inclusion, to the point where a lot of teachers have nothing good to say about them and would refuse to work in them.

You'd be pushed to find anyone in education who says all schools have good practice all the time.

I wouldn't go to a hospital, have a bad experience, talk to others with bad experiences in different hospitals and then decide hospitals and health care professionals don't bother to do any health care and they don't give a damn about their patients (which is what's happening here with education).

I have experienced good support, I've had SENCos, teachers and TA's who I will remember always for their unfailing support of my children. I've also had SENCos, teachers and TAs who have ignored the SSEN/EHCP, removed provision unlawfully, caused my children real distress and lied and attempted to cover up their failings when I complained.
Both my son and daughter have ended up in independent specialist provision not because they were ineducable because they are very able academically with no issues learning or behaviour wise but because the schools were intent on pursuing their academic ability at all costs without paying due regard to their social, emotional and mental health needs.
So in effect the LA have ended up paying tens of thousands of pounds in independent specialist school fees plus hefty transport costs as the schools are out of County rather than ensuring that the maintained schools named on their EHCPs had the resources available to meet their needs at a fraction of the cost.

I don't think my experience is all that unusual tbh certainly not among people in the SEN world anyway.

Cross posted with this.
But despite all that, I don't blame the individual teachers, because I genuinely believe people do their best. I blame the system they're working in
Then could you please stick with discussing the system instead of saying schools don't give a damn, don't do anything.
Schools are their staff, not buildings or policies. It's the community of people. It's why when people are on the verge of leaving people suggest trying a new school.
As I keep saying, I totally agree with you on systemic issues, so can we not keep generalisations about staff not caring and doing nothing out of it. I can assure you caring and doing their best for kids is one of the things that keeps people in the profession, because it's certainly not SLT, office politics and wonderful bureaucracy.

Unfortunately our school is seen as the most inclusive ms in the area and also unfortunately (in our particular circumstance) it is down to the individual as well as the system.

I wouldn't go to a hospital, have a bad experience, talk to others with bad experiences in different hospitals and then decide hospitals and health care professionals don't bother to do any health care and they don't give a damn about their patients (which is what's happening here with education)

Actually I would say that about CAMHS as I'm sure many others would too. Again I'm sure the people who work at CAMHS go into that job to help children, and are not individually responsible for the utter shit show that is CAMHS provison currently.

I think it is important to be able state the fact that CAMHS provision in this country is totally unacceptable at the moment, without CAMHS staff getting all upset and taking it personally.

How awful. There's some real knobs out there.
I remember when I started teaching being asked to team teach with someone who had a dreadful attitude to a very vulnerable student who also had additional needs. Two of us reported them to SLT and it stayed with me as an example of what never to be.

Unfortunately our school is seen as the most inclusive ms in the area and also unfortunately (in our particular circumstance) it is down to the individual as well as the system

Sorry to hear that hazey

My child's school is also considered to be good for SEN and pastoral care, that is certainly their reputation in the area, and it was recommended to me by a couple of teachers from her primary school.

Unfortunately that wasnt our experience at all.

I think it is important to be able state the fact that CAMHS provision in this country is totally unacceptable at the moment, without CAMHS staff getting all upset and taking it personally
I would agree, but as you've said there you're taking about CAMHS PROVISION in this country.
When discussing education, you didn't say education provision for SEND can be awful, you said that schools don't do anything, schools don't care about the students, teachers don't know about how SLT can behave.

One is discussing provision and the other is making judgements on staff competency and saying they don't care.

Had the focus been on provision and systemic issues then I wouldn't have objected in the first place.