Are our builders taking the piss?

[HotGlueGun]

We have been planning some building/ renovation works to our house. Settled on a building company who quoted c.£50k for the work. A key part of the discussion throughout (started this process in August last year) was that the work be carried out before I return to work at end of April (on mat leave). I paid a 10% deposit, per their terms, back in November, on the basis that their diary was getting booked up and to secure the work being done in Q1. That's 3 months ago and I've had to chase and chase for even an indication of when they might be able to start. In the meantime, they want another £5k. Am I being unreasonable in withholding this cash until I get an actual indication of when they might be able to start? Technically I am in breach of contract but surely it's reasonable to expect a vague idea of when they might be able to start?

@Longwhiskers14 that's really useful, thank you. I shall do that.

I got another quote because I knew that it wasn't £4K of work and I wanted 2 alternative quotes to demonstrate that.

Very sensible.

I've also just re-read the terms and it says the work should be completed within a reasonable timeframe. I'm wondering if I can get out of the contract on this basis?

This is why I was asking if you have it noted down that the work needed to be complete by end of April. That's about 9 weeks from now. How long did they say it would take once they started? If they suggested 10 weeks (for example) then it'd be reasonable (to me as a lay person) to cancel the contract and request your deposit back now as they can no longer meet your timescales - but only if you were 100% upfront about when it needed to be complete by and if they agreed.

I’ve hired builders recently for extension project (and interviewed 6 more for it) and none of them asked for money to book in the dates. They know if I pull out that they can find another client as they always have people keen to hire them.

Sounds a bit worrying especially being asked for extra money, definitely don’t pay without very clear info on what money being spent on (which should be materials for your project nothing else) but on the bright side if they are dodgy at least you found out before they started messing about with the house! My guess is they have a cash flow problem and are slightly dodgy. Ask for a meeting with them to sort out expectations on both sides.

When we had our extension built, the builders didn’t ask for any money until the ground work was complete, and that was the case for other builders who quoted for the job as well. I think you are within your rights to ask for a breakdown of what they will be spending it on!

Run a mile they are cowboys.

If your 5k is covering cash flow on other projects there's a problem somewhere, their staged payments from those customers should be covering their costs.

do not part with any more money.

Before you do anything rash contact a local surveyor and see what they will charge to project manage your dealings with the builders.

That’s the problem with a fixed price contract. It puts you and the builder immediately at loggerheads. That’s why they charge extortionately for any ‘extras’ that appear, because they quoted low on the fixed price to get the work in the first place. Much better to work to an estimate and pay as you go.

They want to charge me £4K, I presume, because they've underpriced elsewhere.... but this is just conjecture.

That's exactly the issue I had.

I kind of accepted that they hadn't included various things BUT I wouldn't accept the interior wall ans floors weren't included. (This was a small new build property). But, even allowing for those, I costed up what remained at about 25k and he wanted 45k. The build was early 2018 so along with 'ordinary' British winter they had 'the beast from the east' to contend with and there were many wasted days.

I let him finish the roof and then took over myself and got the rest done for 25k and he was very upset as he more or less admitted he had inflated the cost to cover money he had lost due to me the weather.

Have had a KIT day today so not been able to post but, following some suggestions made on this thread last night, I did a bit of research. The company are members of a trade association called KBSA who are a "home specialist association". They have a code of practice which their members must comply with, with the objective of providing good customer service, professionalism etc and to have a defined complaints procedure. The company we have used are supposedly reputable are more than just a jobbing builder... they badge themselves as a professional outfit and charge more for their services as a result. So reading the code of practice, they have failed to comply in a number of areas:

1. A copy of the contract was not provided to me with the schedule of works and indeed I paid the deposit before seeing the contract (I know, I know). Thus the contract is dated after the deposit payment which the salesman told me was refundable anyway. It's not.

1. When an order is confirmed (ie. when contract signed and deposit paid) the member will confirm to the customer within writing and within 7 days state the approximate date of delivery/ installation. Obviously I've not had that. They are now saying that they might look to start w/c 9th March- so in just over a week's time.

1. The customer will be notified if there is likely to be a substantial delay in delivery of goods ordered on their behalf. They should be offered an alternative or the deposit should be refunded. Customer should be informed of any revised delivery date etc.

1. When the member is in a position to set a positive date for installation, they should give the customer reasonable notice in writing. Is 2 weeks a reasonable notice period for a family of 4 (with a baby) to find alternative accommodation, liaise with other suppliers who need to fit into the project and move all furniture etc from the areas that will be worked on?

1. They must have a complaints procedure and are expected to deal with customers in a fair and honest manner. I have complained but merely received back "I understand how you feel. I don't want us to start on the wrong footing". The £4K quote is not honest, as my other quotes have demonstrated.

Thus they have breached the code of practice in a number of areas. However, my question is, are these breaches bad enough to get out of the contract? I suspect it's a voluntary code of conduct and I'm not sure what the repercussions will be for the member for non-compliance. I can ask the trade association to investigate and mediate my complaint but only if I've exhausted the complaint channels at the company. Do I complain now? Or, given that we want the work doing and I don't want to lose my deposit, so I try and work with them?

My main issue is that trust has gone. They are now pushing me to make a decision on some windows where they feel additional structural support is required because the existing lintel is not strong enough to support the roof. I don't particularly like their solution and want to explore alternatives (eg. A new steel lintel/ reducing window size) but I now have no faith that any quote I get from them will be reasonable or fair, given that they have tried to shaft me on the roof tiles.

I feel a bit stuck. Anyone got any words of wisdom?!

@Collaborate thanks for this... what would the surveyor do then? Obviously act for me but in what capacity exactly?

They would take over your negotiations with the builder. They’d make sure the work was up to standard. They’d know how much things should cost. They’d bring new people in if necessary.

Anything outside of the contract source yourself. They will try and recoup costs if they have underpriced. I recently had building work, and for some things I just called other trades in myself.

Sounds like they need your money to bail them out op.
Paying for stuff unrelated to your home.
I would be looking for another builder having been treated like this.
They may have been recommended but I'd be very wary.

Give the trade association a call in the morning and tell them everything you've told us, but without naming the builder at this stage. If, as I suspect, they say the builder is in breach of contract and shouldn't be asking for more money, go back to the builder and cancel it, citing the reasons why. If he tries to argue it, that's when you say you've spoken to the trade association and you're acting on their advice. The builder won't know that you haven't named them, but he won't want to be kicked out, so he should comply.

@Longwhiskers14 funny you should say that... I called and spoke to them just before. They can't comment without an investigation and just said to take legal advice. They did ask me for the name of the company but I don't want to divulge at this stage. I'm going to meet the surveyor tomorrow, see what happens there then meet with the owner and see how he responds to that before deciding my next move.

Ummm the problem is that the culture in building is not like any other culture. And because its a lot of men who have really poor admin skills they perpetuate the culture (that's how I do it - me too me too).

So here is my guide to understanding builders: (Please do not shoot me I am just a translator).

They want money to secure your booking so that the work is penned in the diary. Otherwise what happens is that builder contacts a person and says we are ready to start and homeowner can turn around and say I changed my mind. No come back on them but builder has bills to pay. So a deposit is a very usual thing and needed to weed out the one's who are not serious.

-The money they want in advance will be for materials. It costs a lot to start a job and someone needs to pay for the materials.

• Just because a date is agreed on does not mean that the start date will be that day. (One man band builders) finish a job before moving on to the next one. So if someone wants 'extra's' this can push a job on a lot later than expected. BUT the same will be true on your job once it starts. They will stay with you despite being probably penned in to start somewhere else.

• (One man builders) rely on trades who come in. They will have a preferred team but due to tax purposes it is better for them to stay self employed. Sometimes you will have lags as you are waiting for trades to come available. Often its not just a case of doing something else because in building work there is an order and you sometimes have to wait...this can cause resentment because you think 'what am I paying for...' you are paying for there knowledge of the order not just their physical work.

• Beware of extras. If you have a fixed price quote that will be what they charge for that exact thing. Anything you change your mind on will be extra. So they quoted for a door to be hung in one direction but after discussion you decide that it should be hung in the other - that will be extra. Make sure you get a price for all extras in writing before you say yes because they add up very quickly.

• Despite the huge sums of money you are paying out in one go in actual fact my very wonderful builder husband only makes an average wage. Tax which has to be paid in advance, rained off days, lulls between jobs, unexpected problems that always occur, paying labourers, tradesmen , the high price of materials and such mean that despite what it looks like, they are doing average to okay and not ripping you off to get rich.

• Building work will always take longer than you thought.

• Building work will always cost you more than was first agreed because things always go wrong/ get uncovered or discovered that could never have been known when the quote was written.

• The biggest thing though in the relationship between yourself and a builder is trust. You have to have them in your home, discuss stuff and so if you don't trust them find one you do through word of mouth, from someone who has used them.

• The good one's though are more expensive and booked 18 months in advance (like my husband).

I hope you have a resolution to your situation and your extension works out.

Great minds think alike, OP!

I think whatever happens tomorrow what you have to consider is the mistrust that's now built up. The relationship between customer and builder is so important. The one who did our renovation was brilliant at the work and terrific to deal with. He was totally upfront about the costs and didn't add anything on unless it was absolutely necessary, like getting new floor joists to level the floor so we could put down parquet (and then he only charged us for materials and not labour). All our friends have used him since and equally rate him. So listen to your gut – you know it's not going to go well because you're already off to shaky start.

Sorry myohmywhatawonderfulday, but that's bad advice you're giving about a deposit and simply not usual. Decent builders don't ask for money upfront, they usually ask for the first instalment on completion of the first fix. The Federation of Master Builders even states on its website that customers should never "hand over large sums of money upfront".

No. Don't use this company. You have been waiting since November and the only proactive thing they have done is try to rip you off even further. Get a solicitor to claim back your money. Don't have sunk cost fallacy - you are desperate for the work and you are in some kind of contract with them so you tell yourself it's fine. This is your home. They will be constantly surveying and ripping you off time and again. It will ruin you, financially, emotionally and possibly mentally at a time when you want to be at peace in your home and enjoy your young family. @Collaborate is spot on about getting a project manager but let them source a reputable firm. Don't do it the other way round.

That is the difference between culture and how people who are not 'in that world work'. We would go on and read what the Federation of Master Builders says and think that is that...but most builders I know would definately not have read that nor follow its guidelines and they are amazing builders and trades people.

I was trying to illuminate the real day to day cultue, and the ops builder sound like they are working the way the culture works, which is nothing like how 'normal people work' or expect it to work.