Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it's a terrible idea to scrap the BBC licence fee?

602 replies

dellacucina · 16/02/2020 11:04

Inspired by this article: www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1242927/BBC-News-Boris-Johnson-license-fee-subscription-British-Broadcasting-Corporation/amp

I'm recently naturalised and I think that the BBC is part of what makes Britain special. It makes me very sad indeed to imagine it being cut down.

OP posts:
malylis · 17/02/2020 08:43

Larry's argument is essentially the same as the anti obamacare argument that Republicans use. Thrown in with bits of appeals to emotion with the class warfare rhetoric.

The UK is not 7th in the world in terms of population either, which is what the former poster was getting at rather than GDP size (although your use of nominal isn't accurate either in this case)

dellacucina · 17/02/2020 08:44

@larrygrylls with respect, the UK really is a tiny country. I truly love the UK and I have chosen to make my home here. However, coming from the outside I possibly have a more objective view of some things. I don't say this to be insulting. It's just that I maybe can appreciate the differences between what the UK has and what the US has better than someone who hasn't lived in both places

My point though was that the US has a much bigger economy (surely you can't dispute that) but that even there investigative news shows are much lower quality generally. Also, no one really grills politicians the way theBBC does. I am very impressed by the hard nosed media scrutiny of government here, and it horrifies me to think of this falling away because that's bad for institutions if democracy.

OP posts:
TheValeyard · 17/02/2020 08:45

The fundamental argument of BBC licence fee supporters is that there are a bunch of experts (not nuclear physicists or professors of medicine) typified by PPE graduates from Oxford who know what is good for us better than we do, ourselves.

Where has this argument been made? If it is so fundamental there will be plenty of posts in a 450-strong thread to support it, surely?

slashlover · 17/02/2020 08:45

and is almost certainly a less biased news source than a commercially funded enterprise would be.

www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report/

The simple numerical preponderance of anti-independence statements over pro-independence statements by a ratio of c3:2 on Reporting Scotland and on STV, is also clear. One obvious explanation lies in the editorial decision to allow all three anti-independence parties to respond to each SNP statement creating an unavoidable predominance of statements from the former even when these were kept short. Anti-independence statements were heavily concentrated on economic affairs such as alleged increased unemployment or closures after independence, such as:

- On 29/10/12 in Reporting Scotland, an extensive piece on Trident and on Scotland’s defence forces after independence offers some space for SNP response but is driven by a weight of one-sided and unchallenged evidence and commentary – unnamed economic advisers are allowed to suggest 6500 jobs lost if Trident goes and an overall cost of £20bn while the report finishes ominously with ‘Whitehall could play hardball’.

- On 11/12/12, in Reporting Scotland, the programme opens with ‘Row over independence could lead to higher electricity bills’ then runs through a series of negative sound bites interspersed with SNP protest – ‘questions mount over independence’, ‘UK government claims cost could rise’, ‘Could Scots customers have to pay more?’, ‘Labour spokesman – danger’ before allowing the evidence of Scottish over-production, renewables and a captive market in England to cast serious doubt on the motivation for the initial headline ‘scare’.

This began a mini-series of reports that day on alleged failings in the Scottish NHS by Reporting Scotland reporters and by Labour spokespersons. No balancing cases were reported of a flow in the other direction although such did appear in the popular press (‘Now English asthma patients are denied life-changing drug offered to Scots’, Daily Mail, 9/11/12). The use of single cases to suggest wider concerns is of course problematic.

Comparing Reporting Scotland with STV News, the former seems less balanced and fair to the Yes campaign if only in the tendency to give pro-independence statements a greater frequency of opening and closing debates. Overall, however, both feature a preponderance of anti-independence statements, a majority of anti-independence evidence and a heavy personalisation of the debate around the character of Alex Salmond with the latter often portrayed as selfish and undemocratic. However, if we characterise viewers as likely to watch both BBC 1 and Reporting Scotland or both STV and ITV News, in succession, the two experiences diverge further than is apparent in comparing one programme with another. The BBC1, Reporting Scotland alerts are commonly short and punchy with an attack, typically a Westminster scare story, on the Yes campaign, mostly left unanswered and unchallenged.

larrygrylls · 17/02/2020 08:46

Malyis,

It is GDP and not population which makes a business profitable, especially one which requires discretionary disposable income.

Comparing TV with healthcare is frankly ridiculous. No one died from not being able to see Iggle Piggle. It is a desperate argument.

malylis · 17/02/2020 08:48

Yet the comparison was made with the US, in GDP terms we are small compared to the US. The top 3 economies (EU, US, China) are very large then there is a drop off.

missyoumuch · 17/02/2020 08:48

@dellacucina I also lived in the US. There are plenty of shows where politicians are grilled. Meet the Press is the most famous of course but also CBS Sunday Morning. There's also 60 Minutes and PBS Frontline doing investigative journalism. NPR is radio but also excellent and funded through taxation and charitable donations. And the New York Times and Washington Post have some of the best investigative print journalism in the world.

The US is not perfect - not even close - but they do have high quality journalism without a licence fee.

larrygrylls · 17/02/2020 08:51

The Valeyard,

The argument about experts is implicit in everything written. What other justification could there be for forcing someone to pay for something that they don’t want??!!

dellacucina · 17/02/2020 08:51

@missyoumuch

I guess we disagree about the influence and quality of the programming in the respective countries. I think it's way better in the UK, particularly given the size of the country/economy.

OP posts:
TheValeyard · 17/02/2020 08:52

Also, no one really grills politicians the way theBBC does. I am very impressed by the hard nosed media scrutiny of government here, and it horrifies me to think of this falling away because that's bad for institutions if democracy.

Precisely why Boris and his ilk are trying to undermine it (also to curry favour with his former paymasters at the Telegraph).

adaline · 17/02/2020 08:54

Because it is a public good which benefits the country as a whole. I don't use every service my taxes pay for, but I'm more than happy to pay for them as that is how a responsible society functions.

It's a broadcaster, it's not some kind of vital public service.

Why would you make people fund schools when they don't have kids?

Why should heathy people pay to fund the NHS? (I am not necessarily saying this is a slippery slope btw, but people in the US literally say this about any kind of socialised healthcare)

Are you trying to compare a multi-million pound broadcaster with schools and public health? Really?! Hmm

TheValeyard · 17/02/2020 08:54

The argument about experts is implicit in everything written

Where? Most pro arguments have been about the value of broadcasting as a public service rather than private enterprise.

TheValeyard · 17/02/2020 08:56

It's a broadcaster, it's not some kind of vital public service.

Broadcasting is a vital service.

dellacucina · 17/02/2020 08:56

@larrygrylls The argument about experts is implicit in everything written

I think you're reading that into people's comments. My argument is that there is value to programming that doesn't rely on commercial interests. The influence of money/profits doesn't always lead to positive results, shockingly!

Here's a sort of silly comparison: food company knows that adding lots of salt and sugar will make food taste better. People will be more likely to purchase this than the more nutritious option.

OP posts:
larrygrylls · 17/02/2020 08:57

The Valeyard,

Why don’t you answer the obvious corollary rather than obfuscating?

What is your justification for forcing people to pay for entertainment that they don’t want other than believing that ‘experts’ can tell the populace what is good for them?

Figmentofmyimagination · 17/02/2020 08:57

no one really grills politicians like the BBC does. This is true, but it is also the reason for the current embargo that has been placed on cabinet members appearing on the Today programme. Dominic Cummings recognises the risk of politicians opening themselves up to potential humiliation that then goes on to create the embarrassing headlines for the rest of the day’s news - and anyway, we now have Johnson’s new Facebook ‘peoples questions’, where members of the public (cough) can ask anything they want (cough) and he answers it without being mediated by messy politicians.

Today has a tiny audience - minuscule. Not surprising as it is often a very hostile and unrelaxing way to wake up, but it has been a news maker for many years, which is why the current lot hate it.

dellacucina · 17/02/2020 08:57

@adaline did you read the rest of the post you quote from?

OP posts:
adaline · 17/02/2020 08:59

Broadcasting is a vital service.

Hundreds of other channels manage to broadcast without charging non-viewers for the privilege. Why should the BBC be any different?

There's a weird view that the BBC is some kind of perfect operation that is completely un-biased and should be preserved at all costs. It's expensive for what it is and outdated. It needs to move with the times. We no longer live in a world of four or five TV channels and a handful of radio stations. Things have moved on.

larrygrylls · 17/02/2020 09:00

Dellacucina,

You have just made my ‘experts’ argument (the one you are saying no one is making). You are comparing the BBC board with nutritionists and biologists, saying that people cannot be trusted to choose the ‘nutritious’ entertainment option without laws in place to make them.

TheValeyard · 17/02/2020 09:03

It's priceless when posters have the 'temerity' to disagree with arguments that haven't been made. So brave! So controversial!

dellacucina · 17/02/2020 09:07

@larrygrylls I actually was going to go on but then didn't bother, but fine.

There is also the issue that commercial interests will have their own agenda. Usually that's for the consolidation of capital and to benefit their own corporate interests specifically.

In the case of news shows, it can result in way more divisive and politicised programming. The media scene in the US is nightmarish due to this. This has nothing to do with experts and everything to do with people getting a thrill from news programming that confirms their biases and gives them a thrill. It's bad for society but not because 'expert' influence has been excluded

OP posts:
adaline · 17/02/2020 09:08

@dellacucina yeah, I just don't see how the BBC is anymore valuable to society than any other news channel or TV broadcaster. I don't think SKY is worth the money so I don't pay for it. I wouldn't be impressed if the government decided I now had to pay £150 for it for no real reason.

If the license fee had never existed, there is no way it would pass through parliament today.

dellacucina · 17/02/2020 09:09

And ps PBS is totally marginalised and viewed as liberal propaganda by many in the US. I don't know all the reasons for this, but the funding sources it relies in probably aren't helping.

OP posts:
dellacucina · 17/02/2020 09:10

@adaline I have said this many times throughout the thread, but the BBC isn't driven by commercial interests. This actually is huge.

OP posts:
larrygrylls · 17/02/2020 09:13

Dellacucina,

Again you are implying the ‘expert’ argument. You say ‘bad for society’. Is this based on some quality research or on your expert opinion?

Probably the majority of people do see their own bias confirmed but there will be a few who like to watch both unashamed extremes. That is far better (IMO) than watching a channel that pretends to not be biased but very much has an agenda on many issues (normally a metropolitan ‘woke’ agenda).

Swipe left for the next trending thread