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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

AIBU to refuse to be held prisoner at work?

279 replies

KitKat1985 · 11/02/2020 20:51

www.theargus.co.uk/news/18227689.fresh-suspected-coronavirus-case-nurses-mill-view-hospital-held-quarantine/?fbclid=IwAR3IShE3kLzzULNr8qVGu-31Bxf_n4YbOVlDL1mXfm6CgQAdK1-XtTXRFCo

I'm a nurse in this Trust. The nurses involved have apparently been refused the right to leave the building and have bee there since yesterday because they treated a patient with suspected coronavirus. This in my opinion is complete overkill and they are essentially holding the staff like prisoners. Even if they were unlucky enough to get coronavirus, they won't immediately get ill and be contagious anyway, so why not just let them go home (maybe with facemasks etc on) and quarantine them there?! There's no way anyone is keeping me from going home from work.

OP posts:
Theflying19 · 12/02/2020 17:20

Not had time to rtft, but as long as they are paying you for every minute you're there it should be fine.

singme · 12/02/2020 17:21

@KitKat1985 @IheartNiles I totally agree

@Aureum I see what you mean about high and low risk but it’s not quite what is happening. Patients who are high risk enough to be tested are sent home to self isolate and await results if they are well enough. I guess that can be managed easier than a plane load of people from Wuhan I guess?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/02/2020 17:24

I know Barbarella I counted the various responses, earlier post. The ratio is still about the same

C. 50% trying to discuss, explain.

The other half evenly split between agreeing with OP and doubting her suitability to be a nurse.

You'd need a pretty thin skin to be floored by that ratio, wouldn't you?

Barbarella1 · 12/02/2020 17:34

No. You only need a few nasty posts. Telling a nurse they should be struck off, shouldn’t be a nurse etcetera is vile.

Miljea · 12/02/2020 19:26

barbarella about 2 years ago,I hit a real low in my medical imaging career. I'd been doing it for 30 years. With many accolades/no complaints. Not one.

I reached out on MN. I got a lot of, to this day, appreciated support. It meant a lot.

But the vicious bile from some, particularly someone with cactus in their username, was so upsetting- I quit my job. I actually did. I was at a low ebb, but I got the whole 'you're not fit to do your job' stuff.

I'm now back in the field, which is good for anyone who wants a competent MR worker 😉 . But I won't stand by and watch stupid, ignorant keyboard warriors sweep in, attack the values of a human being, who happens to be a nurse, then sweep out, job done.

Barbarella1 · 12/02/2020 20:07

I’m glad your back in the field Miljea.

I left nursing years ago, before social media. I still remember the verbal diarrhoea some idiots came out with though. Here’s just a few-

-Dear god you’re pregnant, you’re obviously not dedicated and it shouldn’t be allowed.

-When strike action was being discussed. You shouldn’t be in it for the money, you’re disgusting it’s supposed to be a calling and you can’t be a good nurse if you’re asking for a pay rise.

-When very obviously pregnant asked by a post natal patient to open a very heavy window (very old building). Told her I couldn’t because it took 2 people and i was the only one available, plus I was pregnant and it wouldn’t be safe for me or my baby. Told it was my job, I should have thought of that before getting myself pregnant ( she did quickly shut up when the patient opposite told her to stop being a fucking stupid cow and to do it herself).

-Told by the husband of a new mother that I shouldn’t have gone on my break ( after working 10 hours non stop) and instead got him a cup of tea and some toast as he’d been in the labour ward for 2 hours. Apparently I failed in my duty and he was going to report me.

I have many, many more but you see my point.

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2020 21:13

The thing for me here, is not so much being horrible to the OP, but to make the point that being a nurse means that you are at higher risk of being exposed. And if you want to avoid the risk of falling foul of the new law here, then you would need to quit your job or accept that there was a risk if you were exposed you would be forcably quarantined.

Because there is a law to enfore it.

As it goes it appears the government are prepared to take even more draconian measures if they see fit:

inews.co.uk/news/politics/coronavirus-in-the-uk-serious-imminent-threat-powers-1556403
Coronavirus in the UK: 'Serious and imminent threat' powers to contain killer virus will be in place for two years
Exclusive: Claims that councils are not getting enough information as senior peer warns world is on the 'knife-edge of a pandemic'

The new regulations introduced earlier this week, which stated that the virus is a “serious and imminent threat to public health” in the UK, were introduced to stop an individual absconding from an isolation facility on Merseyside.

But a minister has told the House of Lords that the powers will be in place for two years, and did not rule out the possibility of the Government imposing even more draconian measures if the outbreak worsened.

and

Baroness Blackwood, the health minister in the Lords, told peers the regulations for coronavirus “will be in force for two years and will be triggered only in the instance of a serious or imminent threat to public health by a person not complying with public heath advice and therefore putting themselves and/or others at risk”.

I make the point here, that if they felt that a health worker who had been exposed to return home to her children to self isolate this is actually potentially put them at risk, and thus becomes a safeguarding issue to the children as well as something which you could be forceably be detained for.

They obviously feel that the contact with an infected person was close enough to present a much higher risk than other people who had contact with someone infected.

If 3 days have passed after this is realised then if you live with a family, then the chances are you may have already passed on the virus to them, thus self isolation as a family unit would be sensible.

However if you are exposed in a work setting and haven't left work, then you'd try to prevent anyone else being exposed by letting them return home.

Also there is the issue of NHS liability here too. If the NHS know that a member of staff has been exposed and allow them to return home and they then then pass it one to someone else, the NHS could be put in a position where they could be held liable for failing to follow basic infection control measures in the work place. If it sparked a massive outbreak then that could have huge implications.

The NHS would also have a duty of care to any family dependants who were affected by their carer being quaratined. They would not be legally able to just 'abandon' the families of those affected. They would have to take steps to look after those family members. The idea that there would be no one to look after these children is nonsense.

If the outbreak became bigger, I'm sure that the way this was done would be changed because it couldn't be done for large numbers of staff simply because of the logistics of it. But anyone who had already been exposed would have less options than someone who had yet to be exposed.

Its not about being nice or being unappreciative. Its about pointing out the reality of the situation where front line workers need to recognise this is the situation and if they are unhappy with this, then there isn't a huge amount they can do, accept leave their jobs.

But hey ho. I don't think a lot of people really fully understand the point of the measures or why they are the ones being used at present.

Barbarella1 · 12/02/2020 21:42

I’m not doubting the law RedTooth I’m talking about the abusive posts insinuating the op isn’t a nurse, shouldn’t be a nurse, should be stuck off. There is absolutely no need for it.

Also others exposed but showing no symptoms have been told to self isolate. It would be interesting to know if those self isolating are now living alone with their families elsewhere.

I also really don’t understand why flights from China weren’t stopped earlier. To me it all seems like a monumental cocky up.

Barbarella1 · 12/02/2020 21:47

Another point. DH works for the NHS and states that they have received very little information or guidance about the virus so it’s no wonder there’s so much general confusion and panicking is there.

LakieLady · 12/02/2020 21:52

I really get where you're coming from, @KitKat1985, and don't think YABU. I think there's an element of hysteria about all this.

I often meet clients at that psych unit, and was there last Thursday. Over 50% of my clients have outpatient appts there.

Should I be quarantining myself, just in case? If so, what about all the places I've been since then, should everyone who was in that branch of Sainsburys at the same time as me be quarantined, or everyone who was in my office yesterday and today?

ZombieFan · 12/02/2020 22:02

To me it all seems like a monumental cocky up
If all flights to a country were stopped every time someone somewhere sneezed then the world would become a very small place very quickly.

You have to have actual evidence before taking such drastic steps, hindsight is not foresight. The economic fall out of this virus has still to hit us.

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2020 22:16

I also really don’t understand why flights from China weren’t stopped earlier. To me it all seems like a monumental cocky up.

I answered this earlier on another thread.

I'll post it here too. The problem is two fold.

Firstly essentially that window of opportunity was some weeks ago and relied on every country in the world closing their borders in a coordinated plan. This was unlikely to ever happen. Too many countries are simply too dependant on China for a multitude of reasons - both economically and politically. (Pakistan being a particularly good example due to its port arrangements with China). Whilst the UK, the EU and US might have had the clout to do it (and even then that would have been hard) it would have been a lot harder for a lot of weaker nations to have done.

Secondly, the US has now screened 30,000 arrivals from China, and not picked up a single case. Yes there have been a few cases identified in the US officially, but it also does tend to now suggest that the risk is still low from international travel (especially long haul).

China is also screening passengers on exit from China, to prevent those with a high body temperature from travelling.

There is an argument about it being a politically motivated decision to not close the borders to the UK.

Yes I'd agree, particularly in the absence of evidence of lots of cases starting to appear now. However there would have to have been a discussion with experts on this to a certain extent too, because the political implications of large numbers of people testing positive who had just come into the country would be hugely damaging. It has to be a political decision based on the probability of the number of COVID-19 entries being very low to begin with. Otherwise the political decision to keep flights backfires massively. It has the potential to cause mass outrage and panic (which is destablising in its own right).

But given now the evidence to stop flights doesn't seem to be there either, from that information coming out of the US, that decision does appear to be generally proportionate and justify not stopping them.

There doesn't seem to be a mass of evidence to suggest that screening has completely failed.

Now this could, yet in time, prove to be utterly naive and a huge number of cases have gone undetected only for random clusters of the virus to pop up unexpectedly all over the place.

But we now have no idea if this will have come directly from China either.

What about the person who travels to Nigeria, infects a bunch of people there, and then someone travels from Nigeria to the UK or to the US and starts an outbreak?

Ultimately a travel ban has very obvious limitations. Particularly, this late in the day. Its simply probably too little too late on this score. You can't ignore the possibility of an indirect infection from a cluster in a third party country with low health care standards.

Do we close the borders to everywhere but places with high quality health care services and good infection control handling procedures?

Its the debate about what is effective and what is proportionate. Is it effective to completely close the border merely to China? At this point, I think its highly debatable.

In the case of China, given to enter the UK you have to have a visa and funds to travel if you are a Chinese citizen, there is an economic barrier here which might have some impact. It self limits the number of Chinese citizens who can actively travel and the UK have the power to restrict visas more opaquely and with less political fallout if they feel the need. I don't think we are there either though.

LucheroTena · 12/02/2020 22:28

But what you’re missing was why it was felt necessary to quarantine ops colleagues away from their homes, while other people potentially exposed are advised to self quarantine at home. The advice for actually infected people who feel well is also to stay at home. There is even advice on how their relatives can care for them while minimising contracting the virus. It’s totally uncoordinated and shambolic. Some of us work in the NHS -which I can tell you is cracking under pressure- and what you are saying about there being plans in place to look after staffs dependents is pretty laughable in its naïveté.

Barbarella1 · 12/02/2020 23:02

Hmm, a chap stated in one of the papers that he was on one of the last flights from China and he just strolled passed security. How many people did he come into contact with as he did so? Don’t know if it’s true but seems very shambolic if it is.

iheartNiles I know. Thats what the OP said. However apparently the experts know what they’re doing.

YeOldeTrout · 13/02/2020 08:40

I support OP.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 13/02/2020 09:08

No. You only need a few nasty posts. Telling a nurse they should be struck off, shouldn’t be a nurse etcetera is vile. As an ex teacher I have to put up with that on MN all the time! It isn't pesonal, it can' be, nobody knows me. It is just the venting of spleens... and I discount it, every single time. Years of experiencing it in the classroom helps. Nurses I know say much the same about patients!

But what you’re missing was why it was felt necessary to quarantine ops colleagues away from their homes, while other people potentially exposed are advised to self quarantine at home. From the very limited information available I had taken on face value the Trust's statement that they were talking to PHE overnight! They made the choice to hold the staff until advice was given rather than let them go home. Maybe they know more than we do... maybe that 'superspreader' made them more vigilant, nervous. However they made that decision they didn't do it out of malice...

IJustCantDeal · 13/02/2020 09:51

I have massive respect for nurses, they risk themselves for us everyday. The fact you have no back up plan in these events is quite shocking. When you became a nurse did you really believe that you couldn’t potentially catch something on the job? Depending on what department you’re in I’d suggest going into private nursing outside of a hospital and lower the risk. It’s well known that nurses don’t really get a clock out time, if they’re needed they have to stay. If you need to be home it’s not the job for you.

Miljea · 13/02/2020 10:03

I'm an HCP.

Regarding 'when you have to stay on'- we, as a team, decided not to.

You'd be surprised how quickly management found the cash for the staff we needed once we withdrew our long abused, taken for granted 'good will'.

Nurses are human beings with a family life, not sainted super heroes.

Sewrainbow · 13/02/2020 19:34

Do people really think that HCPs should just stay at work for the good of the patients despite their own family life and other commitments, even without the coronavirus threat!?!?

In answer to the pp who said dont we have a back up plan. I can honestly say that it never entered my head not to do my profession in case I got an infectious disease and couldn't go home to my own children.

I frequently stay over my time but if I have to go I have to go and my colleagues understand that, we help each other out in such circumstances.

Even back in the day when women couldn't be nurses or teachers etc if married, they might still have had other commitments at home they had to be back for. Such attitudes belong in the dark ages...

ChristmasCarcass · 13/02/2020 20:29

I also love the faith in local NHS infection control policies. The central WHO policy may be fine, as somebody who worked through SARS and H1N1 I can assure you that local implementation was not.

With H1N1, we were given a blanket policy that any patient who presented to A&E with a temperature, regardless of cause, had to be treated as suspected H1N1 and quarantined and put in Tamiflu. So 87yr old Mr Jones with his confirmed E. coli UTI, has to be admitted and isolated. As did any other patient he’d been in contact with, however briefly. But not the staff, that would have messed up the offduty. That lasted for about a month, until the overwhelming number of false negatives (I don’t think we had any cases in our trust), and the complete cessation of any elective work, plus the piling up of ambulances outside A&E, meant that policy was suddenly stopped and it was deemed irrelevant if somebody was at risk of H1N1, you just treated them like they had a cold.

We still have a policy that if a patient swabs positive for any respiratory virus whatsoever, even a fucking cold, they are isolated for the rest of their admission, regardless of how many months that will be. I do not work with immunosuppressed patients where that might be reasonable. But we are strongly dissuaded from calling in sick if we have a cold ourselves.

It is shit like that which makes NHS staff a) highly cynical about whether these infection control policies are actually evidence-based, and b) not keen to have their children taken into fucking care to facilitate it.

ChristmasCarcass · 13/02/2020 20:31

*false positives, obviously.

ChristmasCarcass · 13/02/2020 20:34

Fucking hell, actual negatives, falsely suspected of being positive.

I literally do have a PhD in Epidemiology as well. Clearly should not be posting during toddler bath time GrinGrinGrin

Miljea · 16/02/2020 02:12

Christmascarcass yes, many times over.

Twats sitting in offices worrying about how this will 'sound', what the 'tone' is. How might this get reported??

They're on their third Chardonnay while you're dealing with this shite.

Aridane · 16/02/2020 02:37

Notwithstanding what mumsnethq say, I hope the poster is a troll. Or at least not a nurse.

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