AIBU to discourage a potentially toxic friendship (DD aged 5)

[Knobblybobbly]

I know... I know.... she's only 5! But I have my reasoning!!

My DD is in a very small school class, only 5 girls and they are quite tightly knit as a result.

One little girl (lets call her Daisy) really favours my DD and considers her to be her best friend. She makes a direct bee-line for her at the school gates and asks to come round to play at least once a week etc.

Daisy is very clever, naturally very funny and good fun to play with. However, she has a nasty streak and will say hurtful things and can be quite manipulative. My daughter often reports back "daisy said this/daisy said that" and initially I brushed it aside as normal 5 year old tattle-tale and drama. However, as the months have gone by, I have been witness to her behaviour several times. The main thing being that she will quietly comment on how people look and what they are wearing. Things like like 'ugly' 'fat' 'your hair looks awful' but also 'stupid', 'idiot' etc.

I've spoken to my daughter about it. Trying hard not to reveal my feelings but letting her explore her own. She really likes Daisy and wants to play with her because she is fun and exciting but always seems so quiet and deflated after spending time with her, unlike her other friends after which she is happy and full of chit chat.

Daisy's mum is lovely but very stressed and highly anxious all the time. I get the feeling the school have had words with her, but I know to raise my concerns with her would probably result in lots of panic and crying so I haven't. Yet. I'm pretty certain other mums are aware, but I'm not the kind to stay at the gate chatting (I have to rush off to work) so don't know them terribly well.

Now, for background, I have experience myself of being in a long toxic friendship. My best friend (from aged 5 to 30) was brilliant fun, the funniest person I knew and every minute with her was exciting and spontaneous. However, she was also pretty nasty, she would subtly/back handedly insult me and there was a lot of nastiness and bitching about other people (luckily we didn't go to school together so I have other separate friends she couldn't pass comment on).

I was a very placid child and a massive people pleaser. Looking back, I was quite scared of her, but also really enjoyed her funny/exciting side. My mum tried to steer me towards other nicer friends but I would beg to play with her because I had so much fun with her and, honestly, I just accepted her being nasty to me/others as part of the deal. She was also really 'cool' and beautiful. So I think the vain side of me liked being associated with her.

When I was in my 20's and went to uni her jealousy ramped up several hundred notches as did her nastiness. But it took 10 more years until I realised what a toxic influence she was in my life and how she had completely wrecked my self esteem. I tried to make things work, reduce our contact, explain how she made me feel but it was pointless and she would almost stalk me by text and on social media. I finally decided to go NC when we were 30. She was absolutely vile about it. Still, now, at age 40 I find myself thinking the things she told me about myself when we were 10.... fat/ugly etc.

Looking back, she was a textbook narcissist. Charming, fun and exciting, very self confident, very driven, this incredible sense of self importance. But also possessive, jealous and nasty.

Weirdly, I often think of all the fun times we had and almost miss her. The nice side of her. So much of my childhood was defined by her and so many rites of passage experienced with her. I felt like we had a really unique sister-like bond... but of course that is typical of a narcissist relationship isn't it. Now all the shine has been taken off those memories by no longer having contact with her. My husband and DD have never met my best friend.... which feels weird!!

I really really REALLY don't want my DD falling into the same trap. My friendship started at 5 and she is five! I'm aware that the more I try and discourage a friendship the more my DD will probably want to pull towards it. And I literally can't keep them apart as they are in the same class!

So how do I handle it?

I think you need to separate your past experiences from these present ones belonging to your DD. Just to start with.

Then, my advice to my child would be to walk away when her friend said anything nasty. After that, she’s 5 and will very likely choose her own friends from now on.

Yeah, she's 5. Discourage the friendship if you must, but really so much projecting isn't healthy for you or your dd.

I think you’re projecting based on your own experience.
Encourage your daughter to socialise equally with all of the girls (and boys of course) and make her own way. All children need to develop skills around friendships and resilience.
‘Daisy’ is not your childhood friend, and is finding her own way too. These children are 5, please don’t label any of them.

Yes hugely projecting!! But I look at Daisy and almost SEE my ex friend!

We were neighbours, met over the garden gate.

Mum says now that she always hated her and felt she was a nasty little girl and always tried to steer me away but felt I needed to decide for myself and learn from it. I guess I should do the same with my DD and be there if she needs me and hope makes better decisions!

Yes, I know.... I sound neurotic.

I've not actually verbalised any of this to anyone. Just spewed the thoughts in my head out onto Mumsnet!

All sounds very unhealthy. You, not the little girl. If she's mean within your earshot then a simple ' we don't call people idiot Daisy! It's not nice at all and I don't want to hear it please!' will suffice

She's 5!! I'd calm down

But I look at Daisy and almost SEE my ex friend!

Which you must know is terribly unfair and not a healthy mindset. Maybe see someone about your fixation on a friendship that ended a decade ago, before it influences your DD?

My dd had identical friend dynamic. Met Little Miss Toxic at nursery and was manipulated by her till age 17 when dd left school and went no contact. She left scars but there were great times too. DD says she doesn’t regret me not intervening (I totally despised her) because she learned so much about people and relationships at an early age and can now spot similar characters a mile away.

To clarify, you are hearing my inner monologue. I'm not verbalising any of this in 'real life' or clutching my pearls my pearls in the playground!

I understand OP I had a friend who my Grandparents tried to steer me away from and almost word for word I could have described her the same as your childhood friend! So if either my DD or DS end up with a friendship like it, I will have to fight hard against my instinct to get them away.

Thing is, even if you’re completely right about ‘Daisy’ and what kind of person she may grow into, no amount of discouraging your DD will work. Just as it didn’t work when you were small and wanted your friend.

Better to let the relationship progress naturally whilst providing your DD with guidance as you have been. It might not protect her from getting hurt completely, but she will take from it experience and the knowledge that you have been there to guide her and support her

I think if it’s toxic you should nip it in the bud. There’s no need to experience a nasty friendship for learning purposes. Build space between your daughter and this girl and help your daughter break free before this girl becomes too important to her.

Your daughter is too young to manage all aspects of her own friendships so in my view you should step in subtly.

So no more playdates, be busy.
Every time your DD quotes her saying something nasty tell her 'that was an unkind thing to say!, I hope you would never say anything like that, DD?', and tell her that the bad comments about her are not true.
I also worry where she has picked this dialogue up from.
Could it be that Daisy's DF is abusive to her DM? You have already said she seems stressed / anxious?
I wouldn't speak to Daisy's mum about it, but I would speak to school, as a point of concern.

Your DD is going to be around all kinds of people from now on, when you are not around. You need to explain your rules to your DD - we don't say mean things about others, we don't criticize other people's bodies, etc. - and then explain them and re-enforce them again and again and again.

I would be tempted to teach this other child the rules, too, if she is ever at your house, because someone should do it, but then you risk the girl and her mother turning on you and your DD because you are implying they are doing something wrong. She did not invent this behavior at 5. She is picking it up somewhere, and it's probably at home. I feel sorry for kids like that.

I would be more worried where Daisy is learning this behaviour is she hearing it from her dad towards her mum (would explain mums nervousness) or is her Mother the same and talks about others like that. My Bil would be outspoken and my DN would speak about people like that so when I was with them I would correct their behaviour as it was awful they know not to behave like that around me I wont tolerate it.

Maybe invite her and her mum round see what you can suss out before you make any decisions

My DD had a friend like that aged 3 till about 8. She was manipulated and coerced by fun child but with nasty streak. She then went on to make several more friends like that. They seemed to home in on my daughter's passivity and fully take advantage of it.
My DD is now 24 and I think is still paying the price (I feel guilty) for the fact that she was actually a sweet and nice child and put up with nasty behaviour from friends. I still worry about her today.
I would definitely discourage such a friendship. Wait till your daughter is older and has more coping skills to deal with difficult personalities, she's basically a baby. Good luck

If there are only five girls in the year group, they are going to have to get along. I don't think trying to influence who your child plays with is a good idea.

The best people to deal with things are the teachers. They'll probably already be aware of dynamics in the group, but if you're worried then have a chat (best when there's nobody earwigging, eg at parents evening). I would be inclined not to name names - the staff will be able to work it out themselves. They'll be able to address things, probably through PSHE activities, as well as keeping an eye on things.

Your role is to help give your DD confidence, so that she does not take the nasty comments to heart, but sees them for what they are. Don't tell her the child is nasty (that won't help anything), but respond to her with things like "that wasn't a nice thing to say, was it". Try not to let your own experiences cause you to overreact - although that's always easier said than done!

YANBU. The girls in my secondary school who were total bullying bitches (pressured another classmate to attempt suicide) were also horrible at age 5 when we started school together. With all the people in the world, guide your dd towards the better ones.

Thank you everyone. I’ll gently steer/encourage other friendships whilst supporting DD deal with Daisy’s personality.

Re. daisy picking up this attitude from somewhere.... likely home. I agree. But I suspect it’s from mother criticising herself in the mirror. She’s actually beautiful and always looks immaculate at the school gate (how do women do that?) but i can imagine she has very low self confidence.... just from the snippets I get. Abuse from her DH? I have no idea.... but I will be mindful of this.

I had a friend like that op but come secondary school we were not in the same class and no longer friends.
I can understand where you are coming from.
i think you should bolster your dd self esteem and invite plenty of her friends round

Your problem is school size. My sisters and I also attended a tiny village primary. I guess parents think they are idyllic but my poor sister only had 2 other girls in her year one was from a troubled home and psychologically tortured my lovely sunny sister for 7 years. But no other friendship options as literally no other girls. Sent my girls to two form entry largest primary I could find. I think a deep friendship pool crucial.

Your priority should be building dd's confidence and self esteem so she can cope with all the different types of people she's likely to run into in school and life.

By intervening too much you send a message to DD that she can't deal with friendships herself. By all means talk to her about how friends should treat each other etc. and don't invite anyone round who doesn't make DD happy but ultimately what DD needs is the confidence to assert herself and the self worth to know what she deserves from her friends.

Speak to Daisys mum, see if there’s anything you can do to help and stop projecting your past experiences onto your child to start with.

YANBU . Your instincts is to protect your child from potential or direct harm and that's what you're trying to do.

You're also NBU for seeing the beginnings of what you realised in your own friendship - our experience teach us lessons and being able to detect a repetition from the beginning (AS LONG AS WE'RE BEING OBJECTIVE), helps us avoid it next time or prevent others if we can.

On another hand, the child could grow out of this (if parent is helping steer this behaviour away or if society/real life catches up with her) but your priority is to equip your child with the way to deal with this since she can't escape this friendship at school. Then either don't invite her further after school or gently correct her when she says these things, in your charge).

You don't owe friendship/understanding to anyone who doesn't treat you the way you deserve....and the sooner a child learns and practises this, the better for their future relationships.

You are massively projecting your own experiences onto your daughter. At the same time I understand your worry. My daughter is 5 and since starting school last September it has been eye opening to.see the dynamics of friendships. She is happier running with the boys but wants to fit in with the girls. I girl in particularly I'm hearing lots of unkind things being said and stopping my daughter joining in games. I can't stop her playing with her but I can talk to her about why she might he saying such things and help her to know how to handle herself in situations. Lots of 'why do you thing Daisy did that'? Type questions. She has naturally gravitated away from her since the beginning of the year when she idolized her.

Fostering good friendships outside of school and building self confidence also things I am working on. It's bloody hard and I didn't think I'd be coming across this sort of behaviour at 5yo!