To be scared of PIP assessment?

[PIPinghell]

DH has finally had the dreaded “DLA is ending you have to apply for PIP” letter.

DH gets contribution based ESA (he was able to work up until about three years ago). He is in the support group and exempt from future reassessments due to his condition being severe and lifelong (he has a rare neurological condition that is degenerative and I am now his full-time carer), this was all awarded first time around, no needs for mandatory consideration or appeals.

So for DH the ESA process was fine, but I feel really scared of the PIP process and that it may be a very different experience to the ESA one.

If anyone has been through this recently, please share how you got on if you feel able! Thanks.

OK, well maybe try and think this might be an opportunity for him to get the care part too. to be positive. It is just an admin change really and I understand the feeling but if you and he can approach it as a necessary process that will help more than getting really emotional about it. Even a way to a better award for him.

Focus on it as a 'case' of a person with the condition to make it less personal, that can help, and what a person with that condition need support with.

Look at the criteria which apply and how his condition means he needs it, as described in the guides. Best of luck, think of the end result and keep going! Put that anger about the condition etc into fighting for him

Make it sound worse than it is. Don't feel guilty.

I'm glad it was a positive experience for your dad NotHereToMakeFriends though sorry to hear of his difficulties.

Orangeblossom78 yes, you are right I need to disengage my emotions a little!

Husband went for a pip report in a different town to where we live, after we got there. 9I had to go with him can,t go on own.) We were told we could have requested a local apointment. Which hadn,t been made clear. TBH it has worked out fine for him he is on the highest level. Did feal you have to say the worst side of your condition as most conditions vary from one day to another.

@PIPinghell thanks.

It will be fine, just try to relax and remove yourself from it emotionally. You mentioned that you are his full-time carer which will help as they'll see he needs the support. Just make sure you have a list of medicines that he takes and has these on hand so you can show them. Make a note of when he takes them and how many i.e 5 in the morning, 4 in the evening. Does he need to be reminded or do you have to provide them for him? Maybe even keep a diary of daily activities such as when he has a shower/bath and how this needs to be monitored/supported through daily activities. Preparing his medicine, cooking his meals, everything you do to support him will help your case so make sure you make a note of a typical day and they'll see this as he's not able to do things for himself.

I happen to mention that when my dad is left in charge of cooking that I either have to phone him or it has to be something as simple as a ready meal that can be microwaved if he puts it on the wrong temperature or forgets. This worked in our benefit as for us it's normality but for others, this is considered a part of caring. It's the things you think might be normal might not seem that way to them.

I've also put off applying for PIP because of the hassle. Plus, although you can work and get PIP I can't see how I can explain that I'm still managing to work full time (though would live to drop to 4 days a week).

and good luck for it all.

I'm one of the people who won a PIP tribunal probably because of the excellent advice on the thread you've been referred to: viz, submitting ESA85s as far back as you have them.

Y can absolutely hope for the best! (While remaining steeled for the worst, obviously.)

Even if the DWP behaved badly on as many as 50% of assessments, that would still mean 50% of assessments where they didn't behave badly! So you'd have an evens chance of a fair assessment! I hope in reality the chance is much higher than that.

Yeah, filling in the forms is absolutely soul-destroying. It always was, even back in the days when the DWP's purpose was to support you, as opposed to treating you like The Enemy. Having to write down, all in one place, everything that you can no longer do is just the pits.

I realised that my coping mechanism for disability had been to only look at one little bit at a time – only what was affecting the task I was trying to do in the moment, while counting my blessings and being sickeningly upbeat about a sunny day, or whatever. Filling in the forms blows that out of the water. I don't know of any way round this, other than to say, be kind to yourself. Give yourself something nice to do or a little treat afterwards.The process is shit. But you will get through it.

I've had two assessments with PIP. First was fair and ok, second I was stripped of all point despite me being worse than the first time I was assessed the first time two years ago.

What I will say is send all proof you can, and ask if you can record the assessment.
The person who assessed me in March outright lied about the assessment and my answers.
I was in such a sorry state at the time I couldn't appeal. On top of all of the issues I have, ME, OCD, Depression, breathing problems and agoraphobia sleep apnoea. At the time I was waiting for a bronchoscopy and CT scan to investigate why I had been coughing up blood and struggling to breathe for an extended period. Turned out to be mould allergies. But I got 0 points. I had letters from the chest specialist, a sleep clinic, the mental health team, my GP and my counsellor.

I first applied for PIP at my sister's encouragement. I'd read all the horror stories. From first call to award was just 10 weeks. I had a lovely assessor and was awarded enhanced on both care and mobility. I was reassessed last year. They gave me a home visit without asking, again the assessor was lovely and the award stayed the same. This time it is for 4 years.

Sorry that my above post is written so poorly. I've been surviving on 2 hours sleep for a few months and cant even string a sentence together most of the time

My husband just failed his Pip assessment, they said it was because he can do limited types of work, which was why he was in the work group for ESA. He's now been transferred to UC and has to send in sick notes every three months.

Apparently around 50% of people get much less on PIP and 50% get more - so it could go either way. I have helped a few people with these and the one thing they ask a lot is for a rough figure on how often things happen.

so if you describe your worst day - and you absolutely should - then they will ask how many nights a week do you wake up? How many times a week do you need help to stand - they will expect figures so plan for this.

Yes yes, read the descriptors and then keep a diary. If his condition varies, keep the diary over as many weeks as you need to show this.

You'll have to whip up a retrospective version in time to submit with the forms, but if there's a section for "additional evidence to follow" (sorry, can't remember) then say that this evidence will be following.

There's a lot in the descriptors about "majority of days", "safely, reliably and repeatedly", so pay close attention to these. If your DH can do something once only, and will then be unwell the next day because of it, then he CANNOT do it "safely, reliably and repeatedly".

Also, where applicable, answer questions in the format: "No, unless..." rather than "Yes, but...."

I applied for pip for the first time last year. An assessor came to the house without me asking for it. She was polite and factual.

I didn't make anything up or exaggerate but I did keep reiterating the complete exhaustion and effort that goes into the most basic of tasks, and the length of time those tasks take me to complete.

For instance 'can you walk 20m'm - well yes because I measured and did it with a friend, but she did it in seconds and it took me 10 mins with a stick, then she had to bring a chair for me to sit down and I had to rest for 10 mins before making it back and then I could barely move for the rest of the day. Just be really honest and don't gloss over the bits that are really difficult.

Good luck

I was a pip assessor and you are right to be a little bit nervous. I sat through some assessments of other assessors and was shocked by how dismissive and robotic some of the other assessors were, they were usually the ones there for years and numb to the job (most only last about 6 months), however you can get very considerate and nice ones. Although it has little to do with the assessors approach as they are following a criteria. Though, with something like a degenerative neurological condition I dont imagine you should have issues, requiring full time care should be enough evidence, especially if hes on medications and receiving specialist input.

So in summary, it wont likely be a nice thing to go through, but in my experience most neurological conditions were able to meet criteria quite easily. So hopefully once it's done, it's done!

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the good day bad day stuff. Just make sure that when you explain why things are difficult you say why, instead of "I just find it hard" for example if it is a struggle in the kitchen its statements like "I can not be alone in the kitchen as I get confused and can leave things on and loose track of what I'm cooking and eat under cooked food" or "I can not use pans and knives as my hands shake and I have poor coordination which makes me spill or drop things" that the assessors wants to hear...(fyi not assuming these are the difficulties just giving examples).

I certainly appreciate the fear. My assessor was heavily pregnant, full of cold and couldn’t have been lovelier. Within two weeks I had a back payment PIP awarded into my account and received my awards letter two days after that. My dad came in with me and spoke a lot too which I think really helps as when you live with a disability you become blinkered to the small ways you’ve adapted and the struggles you face.

i helped a friend of mine, who has a mental health condition.

I suggest you carefully read the criteria and look at how things work for your DH on a general day to day basis versus each of the points considered in the PIP assessment.

@PIPinghell

Yes, it's reasonable to be scared of a PIP assessment. A lot of assessors are literally trying to twist what people have said and assign as few points as possible.

I personally have so far had a relatively OK experience with the system by providing lots of medical evidence but lots of others who have done the same have had a horrible time so it does just depend on the assessor.

Do look at the 'benefitsandwork' website and their members PIP guide.

Hopefully with something as definite as a progressive neurological disorder, the assessment might be straightforward and hopefully paper-based rather than requiring a medical but you never really know. I would mention on the PIP form that your DH is exempt from future ESA re-assessments due to the nature and severity of his illness.

You have to basically think like an assessor and think why they are asking you this question.
One of the first questions they ask is how did you get here and do you drive
They want to know if you came by public transport or by car .
If he says he drives and he drove to the assessment centre from that one simple question it means he can get in and out of a car so he can mobilise himself from one position to another.
He can follow and plan a route and had no problems with going out and no problems with his hands as he can operate a car.

Example - you say he has mobility problems & can’t walk properly
They will always put him in the office right at the end of the corridor which is more than 20 meters away . If possible it will be one where there is steps to get to it .
They will be observing him in the reception to see how he behaves.
If he walks from the reception to the room with no problems he’s pretty much failed that bit
Some offices even observe you from outside when parking
Some offices will have steps you have to go up to get to the toilets
If he uses a wheelchair or any type of aid make sure he uses it on that day

Another question they ask is do you work 

If you put on your report you work in office
They will then ask you stuff like how do you get to work & what do you do
If for example you say you have problems following complex instructions and plan a route have anxiety around people .
They will say because you go to work you can follow a route and a plan and as you work with people you can’t be anxious

They always ask if you have a pet in particular a dog they love it if you have a dog 😜
If your DH says yes I have a dog
Then they will assume that he can walk unaided hold a dog lead, take the dog out on his own and has no problems with bending down and getting back up to pick up dog pooh. Can follow a has no problems in going out on his own

Do you see how one simple question like do you have a dog can lead to lots of other assumptions on that one question.

Holding a dog lead shows no problems with dexterity In his hands so no problems in picking up stuff and holding it In his hands.

If he wears a shirt with buttons or a top with a zip
They will assume that he can manage the buttons and zips so again no problems with his hands
You have to think of the questions they ask and how it can be twisted into something else

There is normally a Medical type bed in the room a
They will sometimes ask if you can get on the bed
If he does get on the bed they will write that he can move from a seated position to a standing position to getting on the bed - so he is able to move from seated to standing unaided so he will get marked down on this
Make sure you take all medicine in there original boxes
Any letters from Doctors and Consultants
Once you have had the assessment you need to ring up a few days later and ask for the medical report
From that you will be able to work out if you have got PIP as the points will be on the report
Also should you need to do a MR you will be able to do it quickly as you have the report
Also sometimes what’s in the Medical report won’t match up with the DWP assessment

Itsjustmee we have a cat! Is that going to count against him?

They consider it a trip hazard and might use it to assume he isn't as unsteady on his feet as you say. I wouldn't mention it.

Hi, this stuff is daunting and impersonal and I’m not surprised you are nervous about the process.

We have just been through mandatory reconsideration for class (I know that’s not where you’re at) but citizens advice recommended advice now to us and we used their template and won. We would not have without this help.

I’ve had a quick look at the advice now site and they link through to this for Advice on PIP process. www.disabilityrightsuk.org/personal-independence-payment-pip

If you haven’t seen this then there might be something helpful there?

Oh another trick question!

One of the most important descriptors for mobility is, of course, distance in metres that someone can walk safely, reliably and repeatably, and on the majority of days.

This is something many people can easily work out, because your DH may know he can do eg the walk from bathroom to front door, but not the walk from front door to two houses down.

In order to get around this, the DWP/ATOS always add a trick question about "how many minutes can you walk for?" Minutes-walked is not a descriptor.

The DWP then uses its own conversion rate (IIRC it's something like "normal pace", "slow pace", very slow pace") to convert this time to metres. This usually gives a very different answer from distance on the ground!

This is because:
(a) The DWP conversion is necessarily crude;

(b) Walking 20 m isn't something most people know a timing for. It's not like knowing it takes you eg 15 mins to walk a kilometre. A natural answer is likely to be vague and rounded up or down, or phrased as "a couple of minutes" when you mean about 1 min 10 secs. The assessor can take advantage (I've had an assessor offer me the answer, "I walk around the neighbourhood for ten minutes", when I said I tried to walk 30 m on the pavement as exercise on a good day. Er, no.)

(c) The more disabled someone is, and the slower they walk, the more minutes it will take them to do a very short distance. So the more metres the DWP will claim they must be walking.

In my experience, the DWP prize this fake, falsely calculated distance, and will cherry-pick it over everything you've submitted (pics, Streetview, whatever) that supports the real-world distance in metres, which is the actual descriptor.

The only way round this is to very accurately assess in seconds (not minutes!) the distances your DH can actually walk safely, reliably and repeatedly. Stick to these like glue, do not be talked out of it, and be clear about what sort of pace this is at.

Also, your DH should do his safe, repeatable pace on the long, observed journey to the assessment room. Do not let them hurry him or make him feel impolite. Do take as much time as he would take if there were no one there, and also as much time as if he needed to do the journey repeatedly

OP my friend has MS and can't walk. She had letter for PIP to DLA and asked her GP to fill in a form with her about he descriptors, she did this and anyway they don't even have to see her, just called her.

She ended up getting standard care and enhanced mobility (she previously just had mobility on her DLA like your partner)

I will try and find the form she used for her GP in case it helps you any. He might not even need to be seen. Oh, they also contacted her MS nurse I think.

I think it was these ones, can't remember sorry

www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3664-have-you-used-our-pip-gp-notes

I wouldn’t put it pass them to assume that because you have a cat it can be assumed that you can bend down and empty a litter tray and pick up a bag of cat litter and put it in the tray 😜
I’ve sat in on several ESA & PIP assessments and they have all asked the same 4 questions without fail
How did you get here
Do you drive
Do you work
Do you have a dog or pet
I think it’s because these are pretty much everyday things you wouldn’t think they are trick questions so you can be caught out by them and a lot of other stuff can be assumed from the answer regardless of if it is correct or not .
You wouldn’t think that by saying yes you have a dog all that other stuff can be assumed but It can and will be used against you

Other things to look out for depending on what’s wrong with your DH is that if he has problems say with his hands with regards to picking up stuff
So if you take medicine take the original boxes and make sure you hand it to the assessor and not your husband if your husband gives it to them they will assume that he can pick things up and handle stuff with ease
If it was you being assessed and you took a handbag with you they would assume you can carry lift and open stuff from the simple thing of having a handbag with you
I know one lady who was refused and had to appeal because the assessor noticed that she had her toenails and nails painted so it was assumed that she could bend down to her toes perform a complex task and had excellent dexterity in her hands in order to paint her toenails and nails
At the tribunal she had a statement from the beautician who did this for her so she won her appeal.
if your husband has mentioned on the form he had problems with dressing and undressing I would suggest is for him to wear loose clothing with no buttons or zips and loose tracksuit bottoms and slip on shoes

If he wears shoes with laces they can and will assume that he can bend down pick up shoes tie put them on and tie up the laces
Therefore he has no problems in bending down so no problems with his back / mobility
No problems with his hands as he can pick up and put on shoes and tie up laces so no problems with dexterity in his hands with regards to doing fiddly things like buttons and tying up laces
It’s crazy that so much can be assumed from one thing but it can and will be used against him
They may not even ask you about it but it will be mentioned in the observation part of the medical review
It will be written something like Mr X was wearing a shirt with buttons and a zipped top he also was wearing shoes with laces so it is fair to assume that he had no problems with dressing & undressing and wearing clothes that require dexterity in his hands
From this it can be assumed that Mr X has no problems in preparing food because if he can undo and do up buttons / laces then he can obviously open up a can of soup peel potatoes make a meal hold a cup of coffee

They do like to use the example of peeling potatoes 😆 as if peeling potatoes means you can do everything else

Ok not exactly written like that but along these lines
I could give you loads of examples where simple everyday things that you wouldn’t imagine would go against you and assumed you can do other stuff .