to think this school policy is really odd?

[Oakmaiden]

My daughter is 16. Her school have just implemented a new toilet policy. If you wish to go to the toilet you have to go in 2 minutes, and you have to be chaperoned to and from the toilet by a senior member of staff.

I just think this is really odd. From my daughter's point of view she has food intolerances and sometimes it can take her a fair while on the loo if her tummy is unsettled (just to add, as a general rule she will avoid going to the toilet at school at all, if she can possibly manage it). But even without that, as she has said, she doesn't want to have to go to and from the toilet with an adult, or to discuss her toileting needs with anyone.

I do get that toilets in secondary schools are an ENORMOUS problem, but this just seems a totally bizarre way of managing it.

Not to forget - you now have the headteacher accompanying children to the toilet. Surely she has better things to do?

I don't know - am I wrong to think this is a very strange, and not quite right, policy?

So there you have it children,

go to University, get a good degree in a Really Useful subject, go to teacher training college, get a further degree, start as a newbie teacher, work your way up the grades to be a senior member of staff - then become a Lavvy Escort. Best paid Bog Walkers this side of the black stump.

I remember when I was at school I dreaded going to the toilet during breaks because I needed privacy and hated going when everyone was there using the toilet.
Once, these older girls were opening the toilet doors by hitting them with their feet and I ended up with one of them on top of me, as my toilet door flew open and it hit me really badly over the head. I was quite little then and I cried my eyes out because I was so embarrassed. I ended up not being able to go to school toilet at all and once I actually had an accident. This left me with big digestion problems later in life and i still suffer from bloating and still am reluctant to go in a public toilet. I believe that this is very bizzare and I would get other parents together to discuss this and maybe sign a petition to reverse this ridiculous rule.

My current workplace has unisex loos for staff and students. There are 20 cubicles which all contain a sink, dryer, bin, mirror and toilet. Access is from the main corridors. On top of that we also have accessible toilets on each end of every corridor.

Cost a fortune and the whole building itself is only 18 months old but zero discipline issues because there is nowhere to mess around and always a chance you will be seen by staff. Definitely the way forward but again, all boils down to budget.

That's a disgusting way to treat human beings. No privacy, no dignity just assumed that they're up to no good simply because of age.

@NameChange84 I think that when you combine this with issues about access for trans this is the only way to go & the expletive deleted government should give schools grants to do this & include cctv out side loos (facing access area not the loo doors) - individual loo near each classroom etc

This is actually horrifying! I would be kicking up a real fuss and arranging to meet the head if it was my DD and this occurred in her school.

When I was at school (okay it was a while ago in the 00's) yes the toilets were a bit yuck (pretty standard for public toilets though tbf) but we had access durnig break, lunch and could put our hand up to go to the toilet during lessons if we really needed to. Most toilets were open during lesson times. It's disgusting to either presume children will hold their bladder and bowels for the entire school day, and as a teen I would have been mortified if I'd had to be chaperoned (would have always avoided going #2 anyway, but if i absolutely had to then this would have meant I simply would hold on for an unhealthy amount of time). As I say, we had toilet access all break and lunch and even then i recall queing for the girls toilets for most of my break time so god only knows how long the girls will be waiting for the toilet under this regime.

Totally appreciate that an incident may have happened but the fact is incidents can and do (unfortunately) happen anywhere and implementing draconian rules in an attempt to feel like you're proactively addressing it is unreasonable and (IMO) demonstrative of a headteacher who lacks the awareness and strategic skills to devise a plan of action against bullying/assault that actually gets to the root of the problem.

@mumwon It’s definitely changed my views on the whole toilet issue. I was vehemently opposed to unisex toilets and staff and students being expected to share toilets but now I see it in operation it really is fantastic and I am impressed with how it was all designed. Most of the classrooms or areas in the immediate vicinity have huge windows so visibility is good and any corridor behaviour can be easily witnessed. The chance that a teacher might be the next person in the toilet after a student means that the students don’t vandalise the toilets or cause deliberate mess as they would be easily caught.

I dislike the whole fishbowl style as a teacher but the pros far out weigh the cons and also negate the need for us to have cctv inside the building.

Have found out further details. As suspected above, this has been sparked by a drugs related incident involving a single Y9 boy. Although, I suspect like mice, where there is one there will be others unseen....

The school has 2 sets of toilets, one in the Quads and one in the library. The Quads are locked during break and lunchtime. The library toilets (the girls has 4 loos in it) ARE offically open, but to get there you have to leave the school building, go through the canteen to the library. Once you have left the main building there is no way back in until the end of the break. This is an issue for my daughter, and other children, as during lunch time she has drama/choir/orchestra and extra revision sessions. If she were to leave the building to go to the toilet she would not be able to go back in to attend these sessions. Added to this, dd tells me that sometimes they are not open, anyway.

So - there are 4 toilets (assuming they are open and working) for 600 girls to use during the one hour a day (20 mins break, 40 mins lunch) they are allowed to access them. Not great, really, is it?

So it is not quite as bad as it appeared immediately, but still a very difficult situation. DD apparently discussed it at length with her teacher, who also thinks it is nonsense and has suggested dd get me to write a letter of complaint. However, even if on paper it is not as bad as it first seemed, it is still a very intimidating situation which is going to be really dififcult for dd (who has social anxiety as well, and considers walking through the cafeteria to be the next worst thing to walking into assembly naked....

Once you have left the main building there is no way back in until the end of the break Why? If the kids need to get back in for activities why can this not be facilitated?

Seems like very odd rules, also odd that toilets are locked, what if a child is unwell and needs to get to the loo quickly?

A lot of schools do not allow children to go to the loo during a lesson unless it’s an emergency which seems fair too me, children should go at break and lunch break unless they are unwell or get their period.

Last week a number of pupils were out of lessons using the toilet. Pupils should be using the toilet before school, at break and lunch and at the end of the day. Should they wish to use the toilet in an emergency during a lesson, a member of senior leadership is alerted and will escort them to and from. We want to minimise the number of pupils out and about during lesson time. Response from school, which is fair enough on the surface. But.

This was my reply:

Thanks for your quick response,

I am a bit concerned, because dd actually soiled herself in school today, as she had an upset tummy (due to her food intolerance issues I suspect) and was too intimidated by the new procedure to ask to go to the toilet.

She has revision sessions etc at lunchtimes, and tells me that once you leave the building to go to the toilet it is then impossible to get back in until the end of lunchtime. She also tells me that the toilets are often closed if she does try to go to them (obviously not the case today).

I appreciate that some pupils do misbehave in the toilets/ use toileting as an excuse to abscond from lessons, but I do wonder if a solution to this poor behaviour could be found which respects the dignity and privacy of other the pupils, rather than taking this rather draconian measure.

I think I would appreciate it if you would forward my concerns to Mrs Headteacher.

There must be an extremely good reason for this or it wouldn't be happening - does the school have a drugs problem?

& I will state again - according to the government advise any supervision has to be passive (which they cannot time the children's use). In addition their stipulations about the number of toilets that should be available to the proportion of children, which suggests that even though they have some loos open for use they do not conform. (Getting bolshie now - I have had loo issues & if it were my dc...war path!

Well, given the limited chance girls have to use the toilets at break and lunch (assuming a bare minimum of 2 mins per girl, 4 toilets can only accommodate 120 girls during the combined one hour) it’s hardly surprising that lots of them need to use the toilet during lessons, is it? Such backward thinking.

We had strict rules about it at our school too and putting up your hand to ask to go often got you sniggered at. I had extremely heavy ones and would need to repeatedly change pads. If not I'd have stained myself and the chair and no doubt be hilarious gossip for the rest of the school week.

Makes me so angry and sad thinking about young girls in there bleeding and changing themselves with a teacher stood outside timing them.

^ones, periods obviously.

Awful for pupils with stomach and bowel problems and girls on their period.
Yanbu.

Seems like very odd rules, also odd that toilets are locked, what if a child is unwell and needs to get to the loo quickly?

No way do they lock toilets in secondary schools?!! That surely is against human rights. That's literally blocking access to their basic needs. At least when it's a verbal rule then a girl with her period, a boy about to throw up etc can rush themselves there and explain after!

This is the case for 2 local secondary schools near me. One a friends daughter is at and they need a card to tell the teacher they have a period. How mortifying.

The second school I know teachers chaperone pupils to the loo at all times. I also have a friend with a daughter there, but so far it’s only Y9 that this apples to.

Your daughter needs a reasonable adjustment to the rules to allow her free access to the toilet. Neither she or you are likely to ever find out why this is happening but it’s highly unlikely just to be senior staff on a power trip. For example students could’ve using it as a space to self harm, drugs, assault, videoing, intimidation....you are not going to be told. Make a sensible request to have a SAFE space for your dd to use the toilet available.

So this policy is:

Sexist, because girls need longer on average in toilets than boys, and obviously have periods to deal with;

Disablist, because pupils with disabilities or health conditions will likely take longer and not be able to hold it as well as healthy and able-bodied children;

Ageist, because I'm assuming this only applies to ALL children because they are children and not also to the adults. This isn't a case of little ones at an early stage of development needing help and supervision, it's teenagers;

Added to that, the school are really opening their staff up to allegations of inappropriate (or even abusive) behaviour towards children - whether real, perceived or malicious. I assume that the staff don't go into the cubicle as well, but hanging around outside toilets and timing and monitoring a teenager's private toilet use is asking for trouble. They'd need two chaperones to eliminate the risk of this - a brilliant use of qualified experienced teachers' time.

Surely, if they must do something, the only workable ideas are those of of a full-time toilet attendant (well, presumably they'd need two - a male and a female) or just individual cubicles opening directly into the corridor with a key that has to be requested from the teacher if during lesson times (still highly undignified having to ask when they're at a vulnerable stage of their development, though).

A 2-minute time limit is outrageous, though. Many people need longer than that for legitimate toilet/sanitary use whilst somebody could probably go and shoot up or do other inappropriate activities within the 2 minutes.

Like with the excessive harassment over the most trivial uniform infringements that a lot of schools practise, haircut policing, giving girls having their periods no dignity and forcing boys with the beginnings of facial hair to shave their delicate skin every day, I detest this culture of treating young people with less respect than adults. I'd say that it does actually constitute bullying and it needs to stop.

One a friends daughter is at and they need a card to tell the teacher they have a period. How mortifying.

Your friend should advise the school and the LEA in writing that she's seeking advice on the legality of this ruling with regards to the consequences for the school of deliberately breaching equality and human rights laws - and go public with it if necessary.

Kids have enough issues with bullying by other kids; they certainly don't need adults to get in on the act too.

If this proves to be true and the school is in England you could pursue it as a safeguarding issue with Ofsted, making clear that it is a general problem (not specific to your daughter), and that it is discriminatory to girls who may need longer to deal with periods.

It's awful. I hate secondaries. I've been a secondary teacher all my adult life but no longer. Through choice and due mainly to this. Prisoners have more rights than kids and it's AWFUL.
I cannot be any part of it.
I hope national news and SMT are listening.

Recently on the World Service I heard a heart-rending and horrific account of the treatment meted out to Kazakh, Kyrgyz and Uyghur prisoners in concentration camps in Xinjiang. One of the things which was being deemed particularly outrageous and contrary to human rights was that they were being allowed only two minutes to use a lavatory.

i just mention...