To think the 'burden of proof' is on them, not me?

[Psychologika]

I have had my previous employer chasing me for an apparent debt of over £550. They said that I took more holiday than I was entitled to when I left the job, so I had to repay. I categorically did not. The debt was originally nearly £700, but they conceded that they had initially not calculated my holiday allowance correctly.

They are telling me that the onus is on me to prove that I did not take the holiday. I cannot do that – whilst I was employed by them I worked for another agency (employed by NHS but worked in Social Services), we did not use the NHS electronic leave system at all. I didn’t have an NHS manager for the last few months of the role, so someone I do not know completed my leavers form (and completed it incorrectly). How can I prove a negative?!

I really don’t think I owe them the money, but they keep telling me that I have to pay it. I don’t know what to do and I'm really stressed about it.

Tell them to put in writing how you can prove you didn’t do something. Idiots. The burden of proof is theirs, not yours. It would be ridiculous the other way around. You could buy a 2019 diary and write ‘work’ on the days they’re saying you took holiday and ‘holiday’ on the ‘correct’ amount of days and submit it otherwise

This is why everyone should belong in a Union.

Check your house insurance to see if you are covered for legal advice.

Can you remember what holiday you took last year?

@viques - ooh, I AM in a Union - that hadn't occurred to me! Thanks, I will contact them.

Worse - its actually FOUR years ago!!

Completely their problem to prove OP.

Just ignore, they can't legally enforce an alleged overpayment to you. It's impossible to get money back from an employee who has very obviously been overpaid, let alone one where there is basically no evidence either way! Literally just completely ignore them.

Have you asked them to prove that you do owe it and got all their records pertaining to your leave and your leavers' form? Would the work you did on the days you were working have been logged on an electronic system somewhere? Would you be able to tally up days they say you were off with entries on the system that show you were working?

I mean, it's easy for me to say 'let them take you to court' as then they would have to prove it to the court's satisfaction, which it sounds like they can't do, but realistically, if you can sort it out before it gets to that stage that would be ideal!

Ignore them. They clearly know they can't actually do anything; if they could they would have started proceedings by now rather than just kept telling you you need to pay it.

Entirely their fault and they’re trying it on. Write back to them telling them that, unless they can provide proof that you owe them this money - along with full details of the amount and how it was calculated, just to avoid any further ‘mistakes’ - you will not be making any payment to them and will be treating any further communication on the subject as harassment.

They can't force you to pay it back even if they're right.

I changed roles during a pay and grading assessment, and was told that my previous job had been upgraded and I was owed a considerable amount of back pay. The amount I was paid extra the following month didn't tally with the amount I'd calculated on the information I'd been given about the new pay rate. So I emailed HR and queried it. Another random amount appeared - still not in line with the full amount - so I queried it again.

They kept paying me more randon amounts, which I just kept track of and accepted. Eventually they'd paid me more than I was expecting so I queried this. The response I got was that my old job hadn't in fact been upgraded and I'd not been entitled to any back pay and who'd told me I was. So I sent them all the email conversations, including the first notification of upgrading.

They then asked me to repay every penny of the upgraded wage 'back pay'. I contacted the union who said it could only be reclaimed with my consent and I could refuse. The organisation could take me to court for it but the most I could be made to repay would be £1 a month as it was their mistake and there was evidence that I'd raised enough queries for it to have been sortted out much sooner.

I refused to give consent for it to be taken from my wage over the next few months and never heard another word.

I mean, it's easy for me to say 'let them take you to court' as then they would have to prove it to the court's satisfaction, which it sounds like they can't do, but realistically, if you can sort it out before it gets to that stage that would be ideal!

Unfair as it is, there is an onus upon someone charged with a debt - no matter how ludicrous - to do their best to avoid escalation. Courts tend to take a dim view of defendants who are complicit in their own woes by refusing to respond to letters or attempt to communicate with the other party before court.

No need for drama, just a quick note refuting the debt until such time as sufficient evidence has been supplied. And a scrawled not saying "you owe £xxx" doesn't actually count.

Bear in mind they are not permitted to harass you for a debt.

I have contacted them so many times to tell them that I wholeheartedly refute it and that they're completely wrong. They just keep emailing back saying that I do

Oh, and my other anxiety is that I now have moved back to the NHS Trust that is trying to get me to pay. Could they just take it from my pay?

Recorded delivery letter to them:-

1. Prove it
2. see 1 above
3. see 2 above.

Surely it’s their problem and not yours to prove that you owe them money? Also they’ve already mis calculated the amount so they might have fucked up even more.

They cannot take your money without your permission so make sure you keep records by email etc and always say no that you do not owe them any days or money for said days. The onus is on them to prove so and if they have forms signed by a stranger that will not look good on their part.

They just keep emailing back saying that I do

Tell them that self-evidently no-one can prove a negative, and unless they produce proof the discussion is at an end.

If they persist, send a formal complaint to whoever's in charge.

I'd get the union involved at this point before it escalates to them taking it from your pay, That's what you pay your fees for.

This is not a great forum for asking for legal advice.

Talk to your union.

And to those people who think that employers can’t withhold money from pay or claim back over payments they can - and many do. It’s surprisingly easy.

I now have moved back to the NHS Trust that is trying to get me to pay. Could they just take it from my pay?

they can't make deductions from your pay without your agreement.

every time they raise the topic say "I can't deal with this until you have supplied evidence of all dates of leave taken and how this amount was calculated. when I have that information I can respond to your request. until then please stop harassing me."

chances are it's a mistake at their end that you shouldn't be penalised for. if you are eventually convinced that it is a legitimate debt you can agree to have £1 per month deducted from wages.

do you have any evidence of when you took leave in the years in question? is it possible that you had carried forward untaken leave from the previous year and so had more leave days to take in your final year, and maybe the calculation they have done isn't taking that into account?

And to those people who think that employers can’t withhold money from pay or claim back over payments they can - and many do. It’s surprisingly easy.
It has to be provided for in the contract though.

Don't ignore.

This happened to me, I had a miscarriage at work, passed out and could not face the return to work and quit.

I hadn't taken any holiday at all, they said I did. I said I didn't.

Two years later a debt buying company sent me letters and it went on my credit file!

I didn't know about the three letter process, so I ended up paying it to get it off my file.

Do not ignore.

every time they raise the topic say "I can't deal with this until you have supplied evidence of all dates of leave taken and how this amount was calculated. when I have that information I can respond to your request. until then please stop harassing me."

I agree with this.

i agree with others, they need to send you something clearly showing where the difference is

ie you were paid as though you had 10 days off that year so we owed you 8 on leaving (which i assume you can check as it would be on a payslip when leaving), but you actually took all 18 on these dates.
Then at least you have something to check. Though very hard from 4 years ago, but you may have posted on facebook or be able to spot something in a diary.