Patronising ? Sexist, or sensible ?

[SerendipityJane]

Seems sports talk is exclusionary

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51261999

Chat about football or cricket in the workplace should be curtailed, a management body has warned.

(contd)

Not quite sure where that leaves guys who hate sport ? Presumably feeling a little bit of a failure at life. At least according to Ann Francke, head of the Chartered Management Institute

YANBU:- Patronising, cliched and wildly offensive to men and women
YABU:- At last, someone gets it !

I'm a member of the CMI, I wish I had renewed by subscription recently based on that! Utter bollocks.

I suspect that those who are saying this is ridiculous haven't worked in an office where sports banter is common currency AND where being able to engage in it leads to tangible career advantages, for example in being chummy with senior management or being put forward for client-facing opportunities. This kind of culture in practice leads to women finding it more difficult to progress -- I've seen it myself. It's all very well saying that women CAN learn about sports and therefore join in but (1) it's often not possible for a women who doesn't know anything about sports to talk with fluency about them while simultaneously working in a demanding job, maintaining a family life etc, (2) the often gendered nature of sports chat means that men are not necessarily open to engaging in it with women anyway and (3) why should women have to adapt themselves to male standards in order to succeed?

Very 1970’s East Germany. The sport Stasi will get you!

Bloody ridiculous

I suspect that those who are saying this is ridiculous haven't worked in an office where sports banter is common currency AND where being able to engage in it leads to tangible career advantages, for example in being chummy with senior management or being put forward for client-facing opportunities.

What about men who dislike sports ? Or is it acceptable to succumb to stereotypes in this instance ?

@SerendipityJane yes, obviously it's exclusionary for men who don't like sports too (albeit slightly less so, as men are at least more likely to be accepted if they acquire an interest). That's not good either.

Absolutely ridiculous. I am not particularly interested in sport myself, but I find it a useful subject to strike up a conversation about with colleagues I don't know as well.

obviously it's exclusionary for men who don't like sports too

When I first saw the article, I was a smidge irritated that it was effectively perpetuating a stereotype under the guise of addressing #everydaysexism which is what prompted the poll.

I can't stand sport, outside of watching England during the World Cup and Olympics coverage every 4 years. I have nothing to contribute regarding football, rugby, cricket. I can't stand how guys literally will chat about football day in day out. Currently its the transfer window. Barely anything is happening, very few signings and typically only a few small updates a day, yet its all they talk about. Sky Sports News constantly on the TVs in shared areas.

However I disagree with this, the moment an employer starts monitoring and enforcing what can be discussed, its a slippery slope. What next? No chat about Love Island in case it excludes the football-mad blokes who don't watch it? No chat about the Apprentice in case it upsets people who have previously failed in their own business ventures?

If football bores you, just don't get involved too much in the chat and come up with some other topics you can bring up from time to time. I tell people at work I literally couldn't care less who beats who in the premiership, nobody is offended or treats me different as a result.

When I first saw the article, I was a smidge irritated that it was effectively perpetuating a stereotype under the guise of addressing #everydaysexism which is what prompted the poll.

Do you really think that as high a proportion of women are interested in (for example) cricket as men? Of course there are female cricket fans and men who aren't interested in cricket, but IMHO interest in cricket and rugby does overall skew towards men (and particularly middle class men at that; football skews towards men but probably a bit less so and is also less class-based). The idea that fans of football/cricket/rugby are disproportionately male is not just a stereotype imho.

@SerendipityJane

As I said upthread, I've witnessed sport-chat men accept chat from non-sporty guys but shut down in a very obvious fashion if a female sports fan tries to join in, or even just a woman trying to join in the chat.

I've also seen the effects of non-sports fans making absurd efforts to join in with something that is plainly of no interest to them.

I'm a bit that people seem to eager to shoot this down as a gender issue because some women like football and some men don't, when I think we all know that the stats would be pretty damn pronounced along gender lines.

Well I'm a sadly childless woman & the women in my workplace talk for ages about their young children & grandchildren leaving me feeling upset & excluded (I hide it well though).
Should that be banned too??

I used to work in a factory with lots of men & they didn't just talk about football they were interested in lots of things anyway.

I love football so will happily talk about that. I also take about make up, tv shows and my son.

It is patronising to assume women don't like sport. And it is very strange to think of banning a subject to take about in case someone else isn't interested in it

Lots of campaigns around men's mental health and how men don't talk to each other in the way women do. If men can't talk about their interests with their work colleagues, how will they bond enough to feel safe about opening up about other, more important things? It seems ott to ban people from bonding over common ground.

Surely it’s about everyone being considerate and realising their interests aren’t everyone’s interests / better / more important than other people’s interests?

I also have a face like a slapped arse when people talk sport around me. That is to say, I don’t try and change the subject but neither do I make noises in the right places and nod along to show that I don’t mind the subject. I also won’t self-deprecate by saying I don’t know anything about sport. I just don’t care about sport.

I'm surprised that people don't see that this is a gender issue. The role of sports in corporate culture is one of the more obvious examples of institutional sexism I've personally witnessed.

Look at it this way: if you are an associate lawyer or accountant in a big firm, one of the main criteria for your promotion is going to be your general "fit" - ie your perceived ability to rub along with people and hence be good at both managing people and (more importantly) at establishing a rapport with clients and therefore making more money for the firm.

If sports chat is one of the main ways people interact with each other in the office this means that the people who participate in it are going to establish a good relationship with colleagues and particularly mangers - having something to talk about that isn't work. So in an office where non-work chat is dominated by sports, of two people who are equally good at their jobs, the one who can banter about a range of sports, participate in the office fantasy football sweepstake etc, is going to be perceived as better at getting along with others and is just known by the managers better. Therefore they will have better chance at promotion and advancement, for no other reason than that the office culture happens to chime with their personal interests. And - guess what - overall a higher proportion of men are going to have an interest in sports than women, meaning that men become disproportionately likely to be promoted (though of course, non-sporty men will also suffer, and potentially sporty-women may also benefit from the set up, though the latter depends on men's willingness to "accept" women in the sports banter).

Add to this the fact that many corporate events in the city are sports based, so that people are explicitly encouraged to engage in sports chat with clients, and so that people who aren't interested in sports are less likely to be sent along to client events such as five a side or the drinks in the corporate box at whatever match, those people (again, disproportionately women) who don't like sport or aren't perceived as liking sport get less exposure to clients, less opportunity to build connections etc.

It seems like a trivial issue but imho it does have an impact on professional culture.

@mauvaise good post!

I suspect that those who are saying this is ridiculous haven't worked in an office where sports banter is common currency AND where being able to engage in it leads to tangible career advantages, for example in being chummy with senior management or being put forward for client-facing opportunities. This kind of culture in practice leads to women finding it more difficult to progress

I did have a job where to get a promotion you had to go hunting and shooting with the upper management for entire weekends. But women are better shots than men, so once I got over the stereotyping of man the great hunter, I actually had no problems as a little bitty woman participating.

@mauvaisereputation
I agree it’s a question of corporate culture. But every company is different. If you are not a good fit for a company with a sports culture, change jobs to one that has a culture of opera and arts, or museums and history, or politics and activism, or trashy reality TV, or whatever floats your boat.
It’s not like every corporation has the exact same sports culture that holds back only women all the time. The culture always holds back men and women who do not fit in.

If your clients have an avid interest in sports, it sensible to clue yourself up in sports. Wether you genuinely like it or not.

Finding common ground with clients is a big deal. Not sure why you woildnt clue yourself up on any subject, if this is part of your job.

Sport is a good way of engaging with colleagues and networking. However, sport is a very general term and covers a wide range of topics. Football being one of them and I think it’s fair to say that whilst some men don’t like football and some women do, it is typically a male dominated sport. However, sport covers football, cycling, netball, running, swimming, rugby, skiing... It includes watching and doing. Our (male dominated) office has had chats about all of these in the last year - some were more male dominated, some more female dominated and some a mix of both genders. To shut down sport talk would have also shut down talk of the fantastic things women have been doing in sport. Things that have been making men pay more attention to women’s sports. My workplace is sexist but even they were interested i the women’s World Cup. Unfortunately some people don’t like watching or doing sport and that can be a limiting factor in getting to know their colleagues. However, it’s probably one of three main topics that people will talk about at work: sport, TV and kids. I’m not hugely interested in most sport (watching or doing - or talking about it). I also don’t tend to watch TV programmes when everyone else does and I don’t really like the things that people tend to talk about in our office, so I can’t partake in that conversation either. It leaves me with pretending to care about my colleagues kids or in my manager’s case, his cat.

@mauvaisereputation football is just one element of that culture though. Most networking events will take place out of working hours which will disproportionally affect people with care responsibilities, which we know is usually women. DH’s work require networking to advance in their career. They offer a number of sport clubs - running, football and cycling. Running is predominantly female based, football is mostly male and cycling is about 60:40 men:women. DH enjoys doing sport and so is part of the football and cycling teams. However, his networking isn’t just allowed to come from sport. So he has the monthly Wednesday curry meeting, there’s the partner lunch every so often, there’s lots of young professionals at the newest microbrewery and there’s breakfast meetings. He can attend those as we have no kids. His female colleague is the same level as him but she’s a single mother. She doesn’t have an interest in running, cycling or football. There are other opportunities for her but they all require arranging childcare. When workplaces move to focussing on networking in office hours, that’ll make a more inclusive culture. From there, they can expand on the networking events that they aren’t all sport or booze related.

@Daftodil
Great post.
To me, It is ethically abhorrent to ban office interests and chat because mostly men are interested in them. That is sexism against men imho.

I work with a woman who used to play for Spurs, I like sport, but I can’t stand football. That doesn’t mean I’m not interested when she talks about her previous career.

Imagine if MRA types wanted to ban all talk about children or grandchildren at work because it scores pity points that gets you to be able to have first crack at flexible working hours, working from home, or skipping international travelling to sites, etc. All because these extra perks disproportionately benefit women workers.

It is about culture. A bit of general sports, tv, children chat is fine and normal. When you get middle managers creating a bit of a boys club atmosphere talking about sports to the men then it is not so good.
I like watching sport and as a woman in a male dominated environment it does help to know enough.

It’s more about creating an inclusive culture than banning anything. No one topic should be so dominant that some people feel excluded. This is particularly the case when the conversation is driven by a more senior person.