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To be unsure whether this is fair or not - Greggs bonuses?

69 replies

coffeeforone · 22/01/2020 18:02

I realise that it will only be a small proportion of Greggs workers who are unfortunate to fall into the 'will only receive £75 out of £300' category due to the tax and loss of universal credit, but I'm quite torn on whether this is fair or not?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51208542

Tax aside, of course UC will be reduced for if they are paid more, that's how the system works, it seems unfair at an individual level but the system overall I don't think is unfair.

E.g. If the same individuals worked enough overtime to earn an extra £300 then that would be the same outcome? Why the headline about bonuses?

OP posts:
FoamingAtTheUterus · 23/01/2020 12:52

GiveHerHell if your husband is getting 8 k bonuses I've a feeling he's earning more than Doris bagging up pasties for minimum wage. It's 300 quid FFS, it's hardly a life-changing sum of money.

Small bonuses such as that which are under £500 should be allowed to be kept.

MRex · 23/01/2020 14:04

I'm with PP that there should be a simpler and lighter grading so that any increase in wages results in less loss of benefits / tax. I also like the idea of simpler taxes; one-gentle sliding scale for people (just amalgamate NI) and one gentle sliding scale for businesses (plus environment penalties).

Kazzyhoward · 23/01/2020 14:50

The tax and benefit graphs should look like a gentle upwards slope, not the crazy mountain range we've got now.

But to get there, we'd need a completely blank sheet and start from scratch.

Just look at how many years it's taken and all the controversy with the introduction of Univeral credit which was aimed to simplify and improve the fairness of the benefit system. Imagine how much worse it would be to transition the tax system to do the same, with all the different taxes, clawbacks, cliff edges, student loans, NIC, - all of which would need to be factored in.

Far easier for politicians to pretend they're doing something by tinkering around the edges - actually making it more complicated and unfair in the process.

HeIenaDove · 23/01/2020 15:03

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Greggs £300 – Bonus or Booby Prize?
by Gareth Morgan on January 11, 2020

Greggs, the well-known bakers, have been in the news this week because they are giving their staff a bonus because of good financial results. It’s always good seeing employers rewarding staff, and Greggs already have a generous profit-sharing scheme.

They’ve basically just handed £7m back to the govt.

I have two questions about this. The first, widely shared as can be seen from a number of comments to the tweet above, is ‘how much will people actually get in their pocket?‘.

This is the same question, in many ways, as my post a few days ago about the increase in the National Living Wage; benefitsinthefuture.com/national-living-wage-cui-bono/ . It’s the problem of what is called Marginal Deduction Rate, or perhaps more accurately, the effective marginal tax rate. That is the amount of money taken away from the extra earnings or bonus by such things as tax, National Insurance (NI), reduction in state benefits, reduction in local benefits, and the loss of other means-tested entitlements, such as free prescriptions because of low income.

This can be a very complex calculation. It also depends a great deal upon individual circumstances. There are some relatively straightforward parts of such a calculation; for example, a 20% deduction for income tax where somebody’s earnings are above the personal allowance level and a similar assessment for NI. It gets more complicated when looking at Universal Credit which depends not only upon what’s left after tax and NI but upon the personal details which are used to assess the benefit, where some people will have different amounts of earnings that are disregarded, so that the extra may have more, or less, effect. Some people may find that the extra leaves them with less benefit, while others may find that they lose their entitlement altogether, and might have done so with even a smaller increase. The causal chain continues with local benefits, such as Council Tax Reduction, dependent upon the Universal Credit result and low income or ‘passported‘ entitlements following on again.

Universal Credit, in particular, is affected by this kind of bonus payment, because it uses when the payment is made in its calculation and doesn’t spread the impact over a year. That magnifies the problem for many people.

Unlike my figures for the National Living Wage note, where I was looking at the government’s assumptions for people in full-time work, Greggs staff may have a wide range of hours of work and pay scales. Some of them may have earnings above the tax or NI thresholds, while others may not. Some may be claiming Universal Credit, while others may not, etc. etc. The value of the bonus to different people will be worth different amounts.

What I have tried to do, is to break down the effects of tax, NI and benefits in a way which might offer some illustrations of the results.

First, what happens to people whose existing overall earnings, averaged over a year, will be above or below the tax and NI thresholds. I’m using the 2019/2020 figures throughout.

Earnings below the tax and national insurance thresholds. Less than £165.55 a week, (£8,632 a year). Earnings between the tax and national insurance thresholds. More than £165.55 a week, (£8,632 a year) but less than £239.07 a week (£12,500 a year) Earnings above both thresholds. More than £239.07 a week (£12,500 a year)
No deduction NI deducted at 12% NI deducted at 12% and tax deducted at 20%.
Bonus £300 £300 £300
After deduction £300 £264 £204

I am, of course, ignoring the more complicated, but very real, cases where the bonus takes people’s earnings above threshold values, so there is a part deduction, and where people are taxed at different rates for various reasons. I’m also not taking any account of pension contributions here.

If people are not receiving, or entitled to, any benefits then that will be the end result for those people. That often applies to people with higher earnings, or partners with higher earnings. Many Greggs staff, as pointed out in the tweet above, will be claiming benefits and increasingly that benefit will be Universal Credit. That introduces another stage and another serious problem.

As pointed out earlier, Universal Credit, unlike the legacy Working Tax Credit it’s replacing, looks at earnings, including bonuses, when they are paid and not averaged over a year. That means that the bonus paid this month reduces the Universal Credit paid next month.

Universal Credit, unlike other legacy benefits such as Job Seekers Allowance, does allow people to keep some of the extra earnings, including bonuses, that they get. It lets them keep 37% of the extra. The government claws back the other 63%. That gives the following result.

Earnings below the tax and national insurance thresholds. Earnings between the tax and national insurance thresholds. Earnings above both thresholds.
Bonus £300 £300 £300
After deduction £300 £264 £204
Universal Credit Reduction £189 £166.32 £128.52

Worker £111 £97.68 £75,48

The reduction figures apply to those people who don’t have any disregarded earnings for Universal Credit, called Work Allowances, or whose earnings are already higher than those allowances. If people’s earnings are below those work allowance figures, and they have children or disabilities, then some of the net bonus will also be disregarded.

It’s striking though that roughly two-thirds to three-quarters of the bonus, for those people on income support, is being taken by the government.

Whatever the amounts that are taken into account, they will affect the Universal Credit the following month. They will be added to the existing earnings to recalculate entitlement. Universal Credit already has problems with the way it assesses monthly earnings figures. People paid weekly, as is common with low paid or part-time employment, will find that sometimes five paydays taken into account and sometimes four, with very serious effects ( see benefitsinthefuture.com/universal-credit-and-patterns-of-earning/ ).

Universal Credit is not a high-paying benefit; benefit caps, rent caps, limits on the number of children supported, sanctions as well as the freeze on the level of benefits for the last four years have driven down the real level of support. That means that often it does not take a big increase in earnings to stop entitlement altogether.

If that happens then people must claim the benefit again in the following month, using a shortened process. If they don’t, or aren’t able to for some reason, then their benefit won’t restart.

If they’re also claiming Council Tax Reduction then that will be reduced as well and, because for most local authorities it’s linked to Universal Credit, if Universal Credit stops then Council Tax Reduction can be thrown into confusion. It’s not possible to illustrate the effects of the bonus as there are different rules across the country.

Greggs generosity to their employees might seem, in practice, to be generosity to the government. Not only is the bulk of this bonus money likely to end up in the pockets of central or local government but Greggs will be paying an additional 13.8%, or £41.40 by way of extra Employers National Insurance contributions, although there will be a corporation tax offset to take into account.

So, to my second question, is there a better way to reward employees?

While a bonus is probably administratively simpler, because it doesn’t require much individual consideration, there are other alternatives that might be more welcome, once the real value of the bonus is taken into account. Additional holiday entitlement or pension contributions spring to mind. A bonus sacrifice into their workplace pension would save most National Insurance, for example. Pension contributions are disregarded completely from Universal Credit.

While the bonus clearly isn’t a booby prize, it’s still depressing that a government which talks non-stop about work incentives and encouraging people to work longer and earn more, still insists on grabbing as much as they can of any increase that people get.

HeIenaDove · 23/01/2020 15:05

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/13/bonus-blow-for-greggs-staff-prompts-call-for-benefit-and-tax-rethink#maincontent

"Bonus blow for Greggs staff prompts call for benefit and tax rethink
Some workers who are on universal credit could keep just £75 of the £300 payout

Greggs announced that 25,000 of its workers would get a bonus of up to £300. Photograph: Phil Noble/Reuters
The government has been urged to rethink its tax and benefit rules for low-paid workers after it emerged that some staff at the bakery chain Greggs could get to keep just a quarter of their £300 annual bonus as a result of universal credit deductions.

Greggs announced last week that its 25,000 workers would receive a windfall of up to £300 under a £7m reward scheme linked in part to the success of the company’s vegan sausage rolls.

However, benefits experts have pointed out that some staff who are on universal credit will keep as little as £75 after tax and national insurance (NI) are paid and bonus earnings clawed back by the government at a rate of 63p in the pound.

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Benefits consultant Gareth Morgan said the clawing back of the bonuses through universal credit meant that the government might ultimately be one of the biggest beneficiaries of the Greggs reward scheme.

Morgan calculated that under current tax and benefit rules, a worker earning less than the tax and NI thresholds of £8,632 a year would typically be left with £111 of the £300 bonus. One earning more than that but less than the upper threshold of £12,500 a year would get just £97.68 while a worker on more than £12,500 a year would end up with £75.48.

Universal credit originally aimed to incentivise claimants to earn more by introducing a work allowance allowing them to keep hold of more of their benefits as their income rose. However, this was cut in 2015, and only partly restored. Claimants’ earnings over and above this allowance are in effect reclaimed at a 63% taper rate.
Ronnie Draper, the general secretary of the Bakers, Food and Allied Workers union, which represents thousands of Greggs staff, said it had so far only been contacted by one worried worker about losing out on the bonus but would discuss alternative ways the company could make the payment if it emerged individuals were losing out.

It is not known how many of Greggs workers are on universal credit, which replaces a number of working-age benefits and tax credits. All households claiming legacy benefits and tax credits will be expected to have moved across to the new system by 2023.

Draper praised the company for paying an annual staff bonus equivalent to 10% of profits every year as well as the one-off £7m bonus paid this year. “As far as wages go, Greggs pays higher than most on the high street,” he said. “Greggs is a decent company. It recognises trade unions properly when lots of retailers on the high street don’t.”

Torsten Bell, the chief executive of the Resolution Foundation thinktank, said: “While workers on universal credit could lose up to £225 of their £300 cash bonus, that is an argument for the government to lower the taper rate in universal credit, rather than for employers to stop paying their staff more.”

He said Greggs should not be blamed for choosing to reward staff in this way: “Greggs should be congratulated for offering organisation-wide flat-rate bonuses that disproportionately benefit lower-paid staff. More firms should follow suit.”

Helen Barnard, the deputy director of policy and partnerships at the anti-poverty charity the Joseph Rowntree Foundation (JRF), said it was “morally right” for employers such as Greggs to boost the living standards of their employees and the bonus was welcome, although many of those on universal credit might gain very little from it.

The rise of in-work poverty has become a salient feature of the UK economy in recent years. JRF estimates that stagnant wages and welfare cuts mean about 4 million people are living below the breadline despite being in a job, meaning about one in eight people in the economy were now classified as working poor.

The TUC general secretary, Frances O’Grady, said: “This is another example of how universal credit is failing working people. The government needs to come up with fresh plans to give low-paid workers better support, and fairer incentives and rewards.”

The Department for Work and Pensions said it did not comment on the issue but added there were no plans to change tax and benefit rules

safariboot · 23/01/2020 15:45

Universal Credit is unfair by design, but I'm not sure this is a particularly notable case of it.

For people who usually earn well under the standard allowance, the deduction on a 300 bonus is very severe compared to if they earned an extra 25 a month.

The combination of tax and UC deductions does make for an effective marginal tax rate that I think can only be considered punitive.

The alternative would be changing Universal Credit so it's not deliberately unfair. I'll believe that when I see it.

FoamingAtTheUterus · 23/01/2020 17:23

If I was handing out £300 bonuses to staff who may work part time and also get UC I'd offer the option of shopping vouchers or Amazon cards instead. That ways everyone's a winner

coffeeforone · 23/01/2020 17:58

@FoamingAtTheUterus that's an interesting option! It seems like if you payroll the voucher as a benefit then it would affect the employees UC claim, but if you include it on P11D that the end of the year and let them pay the tax that way then it wouldn't affect UC?

OP posts:
FoamingAtTheUterus · 23/01/2020 18:17

coffee I don't think vouchers are counted.......I remember reading the beckhams would give Davids sister (( who was on benefits )) vouchers to get around it.

Can't say I'd agree with doing it all the time, but as a one off for people who live day to day I think it's fair. Everyone deserves a treat sometimes, even if they don't have much money.

PettyContractor · 23/01/2020 19:24

If people working full time, need help from the government, to make ends meet, therein lies the issue.

Gregg's isn't a small company. It should pay a decent wage.

Two people can earn exactly the same wage, one of them can have circumstances and commitments that mean they can spend a huge proportion on discretionary items, the other may not be able to survive. The difference between the two should not be the employer's problem. In our society, where we want everyone to be able to survive, it's the benefits system that sorts out the second person.

The minimum wage seems to be set at a level such that a household with one full-time minimum wage worker will be at the poverty line. (Ideally minimum wage needs to vary across the country to meet the local poverty lines.) I think that is a very logical place to set it, I wouldn't want it to become an arbitrary amount.

ivykaty44 · 23/01/2020 20:43

Two people can earn exactly the same wage, one of them can have circumstances and commitments that mean they can spend a huge proportion on discretionary items, the other may not be able to survive.

You’ve got two people working at Greggs full time earning what one person would if they earn the national average wage

However you look at it, the wage is not a liveable wage, regardless of circumstances

rwalker · 23/01/2020 20:50

Everybody pays tax when relevant and UC tops up your income . Bonus is income so UC adjusted .
Think why it made the news is that most company just share it out with them at the top but Greggs shared it with everyone.

ivykaty44 · 23/01/2020 21:16

And tax on minimum wage is ridiculous, national insurance will be paid alongside & then UC handed out - what is the point?
Why not give tax relief to those earning minimum wage and a lower rate if NI

Kazzyhoward · 24/01/2020 08:25

You’ve got two people working at Greggs full time earning what one person would if they earn the national average wage

Sounds right to me. The average wage will include people who are highly qualified, or working in hazardous conditions, or working unsocial hours - that's why it's the "average". I don't see what's wrong in someone working a few hours per day dishing out sausage rolls should earn the average wage - I'd say half the average wage would be about right. It's a very slippery slope if you start to equalise wages - why would someone work hard for better qualifications or work in a hazardous job or unsocial hours if they weren't going to be paid a lot more than someone working in a shop?

ivykaty44 · 24/01/2020 17:27

. I don't see what's wrong in someone working a few hours per day dishing out sausage rolls should earn the average wage

It doesn’t have to be the average, but a living wage that wouldn’t have tax payers subsidising these companies

You may not mind paying tax to subside Greggs, but I do

HeIenaDove · 25/01/2020 00:44

Funny how a good proportion of MN tend to emphasize the importance of shop work when it comes to wanting the shops open on Boxing Day.

HeIenaDove · 25/01/2020 00:46

Ah yes Kazzy How WOULD some of them cope without a group they can feel superior to.

You dont want their wages raised or for them to claim UC Your classism is showing.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 25/01/2020 08:07

helena

Absolutely

On boxing day staff are as important as doctors and nurses...apparently

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 25/01/2020 08:18

Having said that, its a possibility that the boxing day posters would be more than happy to see shop staff wages rise...which is nice

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