Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Visiting concentration camps

418 replies

Helendee · 15/01/2020 18:17

Am I unreasonable in feeling it is ghoulish at the least to want to visit Auschwitz, Belsen and othersvif their kind?
I was on another site reading how people were booking tours to the above and stating they were “looking forward” to it.
I totally understand the importance of ensuring these monstrosities never happen again but can’t help thinking that some people seem to get some kind of kick from misery.
Please help me to see another side.

OP posts:
NoCountry · 15/01/2020 20:15

Destroying the camp does not mean destroying their graves, their ashes would still be there. That is not an excuse for keeping these places open for anyone to go and tick off their bucket list.

Go to the Grand Canyon to 'feel the enormity of it', tick. Do a skydive to appreciate the fragility of life, tick. Go to a concentration camp to shed a tear and take a photo, tick.

rocketmen · 15/01/2020 20:16

I'd really like to visit Chernobyl, but not out of some sense of enjoyment. I think it would be really interesting and nuclear disasters really interest me, but it is what one would probably call a morbid fascination. I have no familial links to Ukraine at all, so it's just my own interest.

rocketmen · 15/01/2020 20:17

By Chernobyl I mean the city of Pripyat/associated areas, but it's a pretty hard journey in terms of the amount of walking for somebody disabled.

Torchlightt · 15/01/2020 20:17

You have to go in the right spirit. I visited Auschwitz. It's compulsory to go with a guide. The guide was completely different from guides you get on any other tour. She made sure that it was a tough experience for everyone - not a sight-seeing trip. There were lots of Jewish people going round, including a group of Israeli teenagers doing a commemoration ceremony at the site of the gas chambers.

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 15/01/2020 20:19

Oh come on. Listen to yourself.

Just slapping the word 'museum' on it doesn't make people who don't want to go to it cultural philistines and it is incredibly disrespectful of Auschwitz's true nature for you to treat NoCountry like this. It is not a theme park, and for someone who claims it was meaningful to go there, the horror doesn't seem to really have made that much of an impact on you.

Do you not remember who got murdered there, by any chance? Have a think about it.

mumwon · 15/01/2020 20:19

@NoCountry I am very aware of other concentration camps that are occurring even now but I would suggest that people are more insensitive especially to others overseas of different cultures & religions these days & we do need wake up calls to challenge this lack of empathy & more importantly education - ongoing - in different ways - but the more people who see the reality of the barbarism that did occur will - & learn the facts so they can stand witness & argue against these attitudes or at least question assumptions -or who may start to recognise what is happening in other countries - than there may be some hope of fighting some of this. I don't think anyone should be forced though.

Girlmeetsbook · 15/01/2020 20:20

I visited a while ago. My friend didn't want to go so I went on my own on an organised trip. I can't say I looked forward to it and the atmosphere on the bus was sombre and quiet. Same when we arrived. One thing that stuck with me was how some people in there had etched/written their names onto hidden spaces walls, as if to retain their identity and be known. I found myself saying their names to myself and thinking 'You were here, I see your name' - sounds a bit cheesey but it felt right at the time and so much of the camps was about taking away individual identity that it felt a tiny way to honour them. It was a cold and miserable place and I looked at it as a memorial site ie paying respects to those who suffered there.

Patroclus · 15/01/2020 20:23

The Polish dont seem to have learnt much despite it being in their country.

Patroclus · 15/01/2020 20:25

I do that with every memorial I go to Girl. Pick a random name and think of them then incase their whole existence has been forgotten.

albertatrilogy · 15/01/2020 20:25

I think it is fine not to want to go, although I think one reason to go is that 'learning' about the Holocaust via film and/or fiction often means that you may mistake things which have been made up, for actual historical facts.

But the idea of erasing these sites does appal me. Because what would have happened if World War Two had not been won by the allies. I can easily imagine the sites where killings took place, getting turned into bland civic parks in which Aryan families could picnic and sing folk songs...

Girlmeetsbook · 15/01/2020 20:25

Destroying it might make some feel better but those people died there, their stories are there (in some cases literally etched in the walls) and think it's important it remains. There is nothing of the theme park about the place at all.

jasjas1973 · 15/01/2020 20:26

@NoCountry - i agree and said similar up thread.

Given how the world behaves, it would appear that keeping these camps open serves no purpose at all, other than to make us all feel a little better about our total inaction.

Bananaman123 · 15/01/2020 20:26

I get what you mean, my mums friend came back from Poland saying it was great and she visited a camp. I couldnt understand why someone would describe it as great. My mum and her friend booked to go but my mum is a narcissitic idiot who has no sympathy/empathy at all.

When me and my dad started telling her about the horrors of the camps she was shocked but still looking forward to the trip. To me id feel overhwelmed emotionally to go anywhere like that, i do watch documentaries and read books about it all which is harrowing enough. I totally understand people who feel the need to go if they had family or more of a connection to the place as a memorial but that must be so difficult for them.

letmebefrank · 15/01/2020 20:26

It's so important for people to visit. To see firsthand the absolute horror and inhumanity that people inflicted on other people.

If it was possible, I think every Year 10 student (roughly, age 15ish) should visit ... to prevent more deniers and to prevent something like this from ever happening again.

People need to be horrified from what happened. Society has grown much too complacent due to the passage of 7 decades ... but the far right is showing signs of resurgence in many areas of Europe ... we need to counter it.

Halleli · 15/01/2020 20:27

@Patroclus
The Polish dont seem to have learnt much despite it being in their country

Many, possibly most Polish people feel they can put Auschwitz into the neat box of being 'something terrible the Germans did.'

They tend to see Polish people as victims of the Nazis in equal measure with the Jews, and any mention of the individual Poles who colluded with the Nazis is forbidden.

goose1964 · 15/01/2020 20:27

I've been to Krakow and they were really pushing the Auschwitz tours. I refused point blank to go on one. I've been to the Old New synagogue in Prague where they have the name of everyone from the ghetto who died in a concentration camp written on the wall and I was in floods of tears when I came out. I can't bare the thought of actually going to where it happened as I'd be feeling the horror inside. If you can visit without being torn up inside then I think you should go.

Halleli · 15/01/2020 20:28

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50380906

This news story is a case in point - Netflix documentary displays a map locating Auschwitz within modern-day Poland. Polish government insists the map is changed to explicitly state Nazi-occupied Poland.

NeckPainChairSearch · 15/01/2020 20:31

It is meaningless and idiotic to say to each other on the Internet "oh it must never happen again" without reference to what we might do to prevent "it" from happening again. We have a prime minister openly courting fascists and fascism fgs. The time for meaningless platitudes is over

Also, what have we really learned? the Chinese are imprisoning around 1m ethnic muslims in "re-education camps" or before that the atrocities in Tibet, but that won't stop us buying the multitude of goods we have offshored to them, we just accept it, whilst moaning on we mustn't let this happen again, its just a sop for our consciences

These points bear thinking about. There are global signs that we're sleepwalking into various flashpoints of human catastrophe.

On the subject of visiting concentration camps, people who have read books and seen films have more idea about the horror than people who haven't. People who visit Auschwitz are very likely to believe that their experience of it is more intense and harrowing than reading about it in a book.

The reality is that only a small handful of people are left who DO know how depthless the horror really was, and all of us - book-readers or visitors - are still, all these decades on, scrabbling to get a handle on the awful, awful human cost.

Personally, I don't think 'everyone should go.' I really don't. Despite it being vital for everyone to learn about what happened, some people would be genuinely, utterly traumatized by the experience.

Halleli · 15/01/2020 20:32

@Patroclus

Another example - Jewish Israeli journalist tweets about the role certain Poles played in aiding the Nazi Holocaust.

In response, she gets hundreds of replies from angry, defensive Polish accounts, comments like:

  • 'Idiotka!'
  • 'Big lie!'
  • claims of Poles helping Jews escape
  • 'Hands off Poland'
Patroclus · 15/01/2020 20:34

Halleli have you ever read Yevtushenkos Babi Yar poem? its brilliant even in translation, Ill ave to dig it out.

BABI YAR

By Yevgeni Yevtushenko

No monument stands over Babi Yar.
A steep cliff only, like the rudest headstone.
I am afraid.
Today, I am as old
As the entire Jewish race itself.

I see myself an ancient Israelite.
I wander o’er the roads of ancient Egypt
And here, upon the cross, I perish, tortured
And even now, I bear the marks of nails.

It seems to me that Dreyfus is myself. 1
The Philistines betrayed me – and now judge.
I’m in a cage. Surrounded and trapped,
I’m persecuted, spat on, slandered, and
The dainty dollies in their Brussels frills
Squeal, as they stab umbrellas at my face.

I see myself a boy in Belostok 2
Blood spills, and runs upon the floors,
The chiefs of bar and pub rage unimpeded
And reek of vodka and of onion, half and half.

I’m thrown back by a boot, I have no strength left,
In vain I beg the rabble of pogrom,
To jeers of “Kill the Jews, and save our Russia!”
My mother’s being beaten by a clerk.

O, Russia of my heart, I know that you
Are international, by inner nature.
But often those whose hands are steeped in filth
Abused your purest name, in name of hatred.

I know the kindness of my native land.
How vile, that without the slightest quiver
The antisemites have proclaimed themselves
The “Union of the Russian People!”

It seems to me that I am Anna Frank,
Transparent, as the thinnest branch in April,
And I’m in love, and have no need of phrases,
But only that we gaze into each other’s eyes.
How little one can see, or even sense!
Leaves are forbidden, so is sky,
But much is still allowed – very gently
In darkened rooms each other to embrace.

-“They come!”

-“No, fear not – those are sounds
Of spring itself. She’s coming soon.
Quickly, your lips!”

-“They break the door!”

-“No, river ice is breaking…”

Wild grasses rustle over Babi Yar,
The trees look sternly, as if passing judgement.
Here, silently, all screams, and, hat in hand,
I feel my hair changing shade to gray.

And I myself, like one long soundless scream
Above the thousands of thousands interred,
I’m every old man executed here,
As I am every child murdered here.

No fiber of my body will forget this.
May “Internationale” thunder and ring 3
When, for all time, is buried and forgotten
The last of antisemites on this earth.

There is no Jewish blood that’s blood of mine,
But, hated with a passion that’s corrosive
Am I by antisemites like a Jew.
And that is why I call myself a Russian!

Halleli · 15/01/2020 20:34

I'm not claiming that Poland bears anywhere near the level of responsibility of Germany - just that Poland today has an extremely black and white view of that period of history in which not a single Pole can be considered to have aided the Nazis.

DontDribbleOnTheCarpet · 15/01/2020 20:34

As a child I lived near Bergen Belsen. It was a truly beautiful area and I couldn't comprehend how such an evil thing could have happened there. I wanted to visit so that I could see what it was, to understand a little better (I had always been fascinated by history, it wasn't just this).

My father went, and I asked him about it. All he would say is that it was completely silent, and that I was never going. I never did, but I wish that I had.

I read somewhere recently that there has been an increase in the numbers of Holocaust deniers interrupting and disrupting tours around sites like Auschwitz. That horrifies me, and I find it quite frightening that people can be so deluded. I think that while these sites are preserved (if not restored) it is harder to gloss over what went on there, or to deny that it was exactly the way the news reports show it.

NeckPainChairSearch · 15/01/2020 20:37

You would really like to go to Auschwitz or Belsen? shock They are not theme parks

You dishonour those who died if you think Hollywood gets it right and you understand

I feel very uncomfortable about these sorts of comments.

stuffedpeppers · 15/01/2020 20:38

Boudicca - we were obviously brought up in the same place.

Sad and sobering .

bewilderedhedgehog · 15/01/2020 20:39

It is clearly an individual choice, but important to remember not only what happened but also that we are fortunate to have that choice. Many didn't, and it is so terribly important to remember that and to show respect and to learn from what happened. I personally did visit and found it horrifying and moving but I don't regret going.

Swipe left for the next trending thread