WARNING: POSSIBLY TRIGGERING - To wonder how abusive clergymen reconcile what they do with their faith?

[Equanimitas]

Prompted by the Peter Ball programmes. This is a man who has studied theology, who allegedly had deep faith, yet he massively abused young men who trusted him for years, probably decades, and did his best to cover it up. He surely must have known he had done his best to ruin their lives. Could he really have thought that was going to be OK with his God and in accordance with the teachings of his church? Would he have closed his eyes to it? How could he carry on going to church and leading prayers in those circumstances?

They believe Jesus died for their sins and so they can s8n as long as they ask forgiveness whuch they will get. I know someone very religious who did missionary work, chested on his wife and had a baby with someone while away. Done a home and asks forgiveness. Wife forgives him because their religious and that's what they do? Not as bad as abuse talked about here but still shitty behaviour that they think they can just say sorry and it goes away :/

If abusers aren't 'proper Christians', does the same apply to the myriad senior clergy who covered it up for years. People like George Carey? To me, knowing about the abuse, having the power to do something which will stop it and bring the perpetrators to justice, yet still doing nothing is almost equally evil. Yet no-one, not a single one of these men we are supposed to revere (hollow laugh) did anything whatsoever. Presumably they aren't 'proper Christians either. It appears that the church is full of them...

There are many good clergy, but clearly there are also some with narcissistic qualities who enjoy the power, prestige and rewards that come with the post. I suspect that some of them feel entitled to do what they want, and that the law doesn’t apply to them, and in certain communities that is entirely true.

MoonMelodies, what evidence do you have a) that God is “made up”
and b) that “the rest of us” also think so?
Rather a sweeping and goady post, no?
The 2.1 billion Christians in the world would disagree with you. As would the 1.8 billion Muslims.
As would I, who, in common with many other worshippers across the world and throughout history, have had a direct encounter with the presence of God.
You are perfectly entitled to your atheist belief, but you cannot state it as fact, nor m ascribe it to everyone else.

I think some paedophiles cynically enter the Church with little or no faith, because historically it allowed them unsupervised access to children who would be unlikely to be believed if they mentioned abuse by church elders. So, for the opportunity.

I also think there are probably men who do have faith but also recognise that they have paedophile urges, and hate themselves for that, and hope that if they pray hard enough, God will stop them acting on those urges.

The requirement for celibacy (in the Catholic church) possibly contributes to this problem, but there are also plenty of men who are married/not celibate, who also abuse children, so celibacy is not the whole problem.

I think the Church finds itself in a difficult position: forgiveness is a central part of its teaching, but forgiveness under these circumstances has had disastrous consequences.

Well they're men, so, lust always overalls everything for them. And they can partition that part off in their minds and carry on as if all's fine with the world.

I suspect there were a number of different motivations amongst the senior clergy for covering up. Some assumed that the victims were liars or fantasists or both and it was awfully bad luck for good old Peter that they chose to make things up about him; some thought that, well, maybe something had happened but no-one's perfect and it's all been exaggerated; some felt that the accusers must be ghastly oiks who should know their place and keep their mouths shut; some had a very good idea what was going on but took the view that the possibility of harm to the church outweighed any damage to the victims. In many ways it's the last group who were the most blameworthy, because they didn't even take the opportunity to put it out of Ball's power to have access to boys and young men through the church after he was cautioned.

@Moonmelodies what a helpful contribution

I think a huge part of it is compartmentalisation, and also, that they believe they are the 'good guys'. Therefore what is done by them is right or at least justified.

My experience with this is at the hands of a dr. I won't post what he did as it may be triggering on this type of thread but suffice to say I was 11 and my sister 10. He was widely regarded in the community as a good doctor, 'authoritative', 'no-nonsense', etc. He framed what he did as part of a medical exam. I imagine these clergy can (some of them) frame it as 'an act of love' or similar. To themselves, I mean.

The thing is, I think we all bear responsibility for this as a society because historically we have been way too uncritical of authority figures.

Again, for me, my experience is with someone medical doing this. And the number of people, right now, on MN in 2020, who will excuse HCPs touching a woman in a way she doesn't want 'because it's their job'/ 'they're the expert so you should do what they say'/ 'they're under pressure and don't have time to ask consent' etc etc etc is incredibly chilling. A lot of people still believe that if a well-intentioned authority figure does something, it's okay.

I am an atheist and don't move in religious circles at all but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a similar 'logic' being applied there.

My childhood parish priest was finally convicted of child abuse. He'd been moved from parish to parish leaving abused boys behind - he even ran a "Boy's Club" in every parish which was his vehicle for abuse. One boy committed suicide. Adults knew, the diocese knew and no one appeared to do anything about it except make it easier for him to do it.

They believe Jesus died for their sins and so they can s8n as long as they ask forgiveness whuch they will get. I know someone very religious who did missionary work, chested on his wife and had a baby with someone while away. Done a home and asks forgiveness. Wife forgives him because their religious and that's what they do? Not as bad as abuse talked about here but still shitty behaviour that they think they can just say sorry and it goes away

All of this.

My FIL is a wildly abusive man (not a paedophile) and has never apologised because “Jesus forgives him”.

How very fucking convenient 😡

Cardinal Pell once said that the rates of child sexual abuse aren’t higher in the church than in society as a whole, as if that excused it.

Seemingly forgetting that the entire point of the Church is to claim moral superiority...

Listen to Tim Minchin’s Come Home, Cardinal Pell and The Pope Song if you haven’t already. They’ve got some great lines.

Especially:
‘If you build your church on claims of fucking moral authority,
And with threats of hell impose it on others in society,
Then you you motherfuckers can expect some fucking wrath,
When it turns out you’ve been fucking us in our motherfucking asses.’

Fiddling with kids

Can I say that as a survivor of abuse I find this phrase really offensive.

There's a difference between saying you believe something, acting as if you believe something, and actually really believing in your heart that it is literally true.

I'm sure the Pope knows none of the Christian mumbo jumbo is literally true, but he's past the point at which he can really admit it. Same for most religious people. And certainly true for these criminal bastards.

I did wonder, when watching last night's programme, whether Prince Andrew was watching and thinking that his brother wasn't really in a great position to claim the moral high ground over him.

One of the victims giving his account said that the Bishop would convince his victims to do it by saying that doing these depraved things would help him feel closer to Jesus' suffering. He also told his victims some other excuses that certain prayers/rites had to be performed naked etc, and obviously he would have known that's a complete fabrication, but I do wonder if the whole "Jesus's suffering" bit could be something he might have used to justify these things to his own conscience?

Two possibilities:

1. They aren't priests who became pervs. They were always pervs and became priests to facilitate their perving.

1. All that "We are all sinners" schtick.

Listen to Tim Minchin’s Come Home, Cardinal Pell and The Pope Song.

Aw, any excuse, and all funds from the YouTube page go to the legal fund to keep the bastard locked up where he belongs:

I don't think they do reconcile their abusive behavior with their faith, I think they see their abuse as sepatate. So they can be the holy man that people revere and trust and get off on knowing they aren't. I bet it adds an extra frisson to it. I was so shocked by that documentary, not because it was news to me, but it just showed the hypocrisy of it all. Those young men were not treated as human beings, they were treated as though they didn't matter to the church, they weren't as important as Peter Ball. Prince Charles behaviour made me sick. I spoke to my parents about it as they had watched it, we all agreed that any normal human being who covered up for a paedophile was either one themselves or completely morally bankrupt as the whole concept is incomprehensible to the rest of us.

My F was this kind of person. He was a missionary in Africa and always demonstrated a deeply spiritual attitude. He was greatly admired as a brave man who had suffered greatly during the Second World War. (He was a Czech refugee whose family had suffered greatly.). He also suffered from Parkinson's Disease, diagnosed in his early 40s and had several strokes.

But it was all a con. He was a sexual predator who sexually abused my DSis and me; I was 6 when he first raped me. He also did it to some of our school friends. He allowed my DB to be sexually assaulted (he was part of a paedophile network). And groomed him to abuse us.

He pulled the wool over my DM's eyes, made her think he was a wonderful father. Actually, I realise that he was controlling of her, financial abuse. He emotionally abused her and accused her of infidelity regularly.

He's dead so there's no way of asking him how he could justify to himself some of the things he did. He was very damaged, I think he had NPD, as he could never admit to being in the wrong. My DSis told me that he did ask her forgiveness when he was dying, for 'what he put us through when we were children. Obviously he was about to meet his maker, so he was belatedly trying to put things right.

I've known plenty of others like him. The problem is that there still persists the idea that we shouldn't 'bring shame' on to the church by reporting sexual crimes. I've heard it said very recently by a pastor I thought was a decent family man, which deeply angered me. He actually told my friend whose husband had abused her daughter that she shouldn't report it to the police. And also, to cap it all, he told her it was her fault, and not been a good enough wife.

My DM blames herself for not satisfying her H; it's a very persistent belief in the church. Her advice when I was traumatised by horrible flashbacks and couldn't have sex with my DH was to 'lie back and think of England.'

I was also abused by the priest at the convent school I went to, and the headmistress, who was a nun. I think it's a case of pervs becoming priests so they can target vulnerable children.

They don't. They can't possibly.