considering banning dd from playing with friend if she does this again

[shesgrownhorns]

My dd has this year endured an on/off relationship with her friendship group. She's 10. I have got involved before, telling the mums (who have become my friends) what seems to be going on and the exclusion of my dd resolved for a bit, but then soon started again in an intermittent way. My dd has low self esteem now because of this, and has become quite lost I think. She plays with other children (children who themselves are on the fringe of friendship groups too, poor loves) which I think is great and I encourage her to encourage them to all play together. Anyway one of the friends of the friendship group that keeps isolating her was horrible to her and pushed her out. Dd came home sad but recovered at home. (She's getting used to it which is really worrying me) Anyhow, after a full week of being ostracised the little texted her to say sorry and could they be friends. This is after dd had texted her to chat and she blocked her... My dd said of course. So they're friends again. Dd phoned her asking if she could come round and play soon and she said maybe, she'll see.

My AIBU is.... I don't want her round, and I'm not happy that my dd has let her back in so easily.

WIBU if I told my dd that if it happens again I will ban her from being friends with her again?

I think you need to stay out of this in the sense of trying to manage her friendship with others. It's painful to watch the breakups and arguments but you can't make others being nicer to her or be friends with her. Focus on empowering her and giving her advice and strengthen her self-confidence but at this age you can't organise her social life for her, she needs to learn to negotiate all the obstacles of social life, friendships and problems on her own.

Queen Bees and Wannabes is really worth reading in this situation.

There's a very good book called 'Don't pick on me - how to handle bullying' which would really help her see the wood for the trees, and understand the dynamics among her friendship group.

Difficult one OP.
I think at 10, DD is old enough to be taught what a "frenemy" is & how to avoid being played with by one.

I'd start with that, rather than the threat of a next-time ban.
DD will need to learn to handle this as she enters teenhood, & knowledge is power ...

unless she is being bullied you can not get involved in sorting out her friendships for her. of course, as her mother you want to protect her from all harm. young girls can be very cruel, on-off in their friendships but it is important she gets to work this one out herself to help her learn how she can deal with similar situations when older. try and speak with her about importance of having more than one "best" friend. and encourage her to get to know other children outside school circle - at scouts or guides, sport club / orchestra to help her become less dependent on school frenemies

Or she will end up like me ,47 in the same situation,with a friend I can’t escape from who treats me like shit

Oh @Christmaspug that is so sad.
What would it take for you to be able to tell your own Frenemy to go fuck herself?

I think by this age banning does not work. And it is because you can't control what happens at school. Instead you need to work out strategies to build up your DCs self-esteem, encourage other friendships, and subtly teach her through books, discussions, dramas, etc what a good friend looks like.
This issue will otherwise reoccur again at some point. Your DD needs to learn how to identify good friends and ditch those that are unhealthy.

I would add though that of course they are children so some amount of falling out and making up is normal. So I would also want to be sure that you are not interpreting normal 10 year olds friendships through adult standards.

I can't believe how many people are saying not to get involved. I would absolutely get involved, to protect my daughter. She is only 10!

It's a very fine line we have to walk as caring parents, about letting them resolve things themselves, which is a really important skill to development and interfering.

I think at this stage you shouldn't interfere and don't dramatise the problem either. Your getting upsetting will upset your daughter even more.

We had a bit of this with DD - I focused on talking to her about it, and trying to help her work out good ways to handle the situation. It won’t be the last time she encounters someone like this so it’s a good time to start learning about the best way to deal with it.

Don't interfere or over dramatise. Plant seeds of doubt in her mind about her friend. I did a raised eyebrow and said 'are you sure? She's not been very nice to you and you know that real friends are kind' etc.

Basically, give her the tools to help her negotiate her friendships better and build her self esteem. Banning this girl won't achieve that

We had this. I talked to my DC, we discussed why she wouldn’t do it and why she shouldn’t put up with it.

I strongly encouraged other friendships outside of school as well.

I told her to be smiley and polite and not to put herself out for the frenemy nor to expect frenemy to be nice as she has shown DC she wasn’t a nice person and DC deserved kind friends who really wanted to be friends.

I also did lots of play dates with other friends and invited friends she did have a good relationship out with us to trips and stuff.

She learned coping strategies.

@redrec My experience is when parents do that, the kids carry on being friends at school and just lie. And your DD cannot talk to you about what is happening.
Either that or your DD learns nothing about what a good friend is, and gets into other unsuitable friendships.
Some things they do need to learn for themselves with guidance and help.

@RedRed maybe it depends on the definition of "getting involved". if you speak to your child about characteristics of a healthy friendship, help her explore tools to handle relationship situations and encourage her to build relationships outside the school circle this hopefully empowers the child to develop resilience and gives them the confidence that they can handle difficult situations. if you ban a friend from visiting or interfere in school friendship problems by asking the parents of other children to tell their own children to treat your child differently this may signal to your child that you don't have any confidence in their ability to handle their friendship problems, you don't trust their ability to choose suitable friends and that it is up to parents (translate into management / line manager in future jobs) to sort out conflict for them as they can not do it themselves

I wouldn't get involved like that as much as I'd have wanted to when mine were young.

The new group of girls sounds lovely and perhaps helping her see she can be friends with different groups is good and that she doesn't have to have loyalty to one set of friends.

What you need to try to not do is point out the other girls are in the same boat as her. As this will sub consciously make your D feel they are the 2nd best option. But only talk about them as any other group of girls, which they are. It's things like , they have been pushed out their group , they no how you feel - these comments.

Your feelings are unreasonable, but please dont ban her, it will just cause bad feelings. I would be talking to her about self esteem (reading books with her maybe), and maybe sharing things that you have learned about friendships. It is so sad that this is happening to your daughter, but this is something she needs to learn.

My advice is: read Queen Bees
Watch Mean Girls with her and discuss it.
Watch other TV shows about middle school/ high school and UK equivalent.
Make sure she has some outside interests with people away from school: choir, sports, Brownies/Guides or Scouts...just something. The same children who can be a bit mean girl at school can be much better away from their "school friends".

I would talk to the daughter and make sure she understands that there are always bullies around, and that bullying is a form of abuse. Things like this can't be swept under the carpet as it affects her self-esteem, resolve and her ability to make friends. Perhaps, get some "real" friends - harmless and meeker than your daughter, to your house to play or hang out. Very important that children are happy under their own skin instead of being sidelined and feeling depressed. Always talk or even write in a diary or even draw. You could probably encourage her to develop her passion, be it swimming, singing or anything. One way to show her that school life is more than revolving worthless bullies. I read in the paper that a PhD student hanged herself because of low self-esteem and being ostracised. You can't live your daughter's life, but you're probably older and wiser and have been there and done that. So keep a line of communication open so she doesn't have to bottle up her unhappiness. Mental health is very important.

I had EXACTLY this scenario when I was growing up - and it took until I was in my 40s to realise that my 'friend' was a toxic bully - and by god if ever I came across her now I would tell her so! My mother never got involved though, so you need to be a bit careful, but you do need to discourage the 'friendship' - perhaps by reminding your daughter of how she feels when dumped again and it will happen.

I was put through similar treatment at the same age as your DD, as was my DS by the sibling of my so-called friend. It was out and out bullying, not just of US, but of everyone they came into contact with. In the end, my DM sent my DS and me to a separate school because things just got so bad. These two sisters were absolutely horrendous. Everyone they encountered, both boys and girls were terrified of them. We had the misfortune of being part of their inner circle, and their mistreatment of us was absolutely disgusting. Now as a much older person, I don't think about it much, only when I read posts like yours, but I do think it affected me more than I care to believe.

I'm afraid banning her will only make things worse.

Work on building up DD's self esteem and help her see how real friends behave. I fear banning her will drive DD and her friendship underground and make her even more tantalising. And it may make DD stop confiding in you. She needs to figure out her friend is toxic-and you can help-but not by banning her but by giving DD the tools and insights to see for herself.

This actually happened with my younger son, not my DD. There's a boy in younger son's class who has to be the boss and has done the excluding divide and conquer thing blatantly from a shockingly young age. He and my youngest were best friends when very small at preschool but the power tripping started at the beginning of primary school.

The worst of it cooincided with having a bit more contact with his parents by coincidence - at community events and school events. It became clear that something was a bit off in the family, the father seemed on more frequent encounter to be a bully (a bully in a suit, the kind that isn't always obvious at first glance) and some of the things he said to his son were strange... The mother seemed initially quite loud and pushy but seeing her more often actually with her son it became clear he alternated between being very rude to her and completely and utterly ignoring her, as though she wasn't actually there...

In the end I told DS2 that he is not allowed to go to the boys house, ever, for any reason, nor is the boy welcome here. Obviously they can play together at school and at parties.

I did it partly because of beginning to feel uncomfortable about the family and not wanting DS to be at their house without DH or I, and he's too old for parent accompanying to be expected.

It took a weight off DS though because the bargaining chip/ power play of I might invite you/ you're invited/ you're invited etc etc etc is gone. He isn't allowed to go, so obviously he can't be invited.

He still gets invited to other children's houses and parties even from within the power play group (unfortunately there are only seven box's including the problematic one in his class).

Actually I think it's ok to decide she can't come for a playdate. I'm not sure if you need to tell your DD why or not.
My DC were very indiscreet so if I'd said 'she cant come round because she blows hot and cold and treats you badly' - they'd have told the frenemy that ie 'my mum says . . .' !
But I'd be gently discouraging the friendship by limiting it to school time.
I was a child with very poor boundaries. I always assumed the best, gave people lots of chances. I think I'd have benefited from learning it was ok to value myself.

A lot of this went on with a bunch of girls when my DD was in year 6. It was exhausting for everyone and really annoying. Every 5 minutes the teachers had to get all the girls together for a ‘talk’ and it was pointless because the girls involved all fed off each other and loved the drama. Similarly the mums of the girls involved were all friends too.

The bit you wrote about the poor loves who were girls on the edge of friendship groups set me on edge a little. How do you know this? Are you deciding whose popular or not? My DD might have seemed like this to you, yet it was nothing of the sort she just couldn’t be bothered with the constant nonsense and was very much into her out of school activities and her close friends in school.

Im projecting here but at the time the rest of the kids and parents just wanted them all to grow up. Lots of eye rolling sadly because some of these kids were clever girls who could do so much better! They were the ones who were given phones much too early and it caused a headache for everyone.

If anything don’t create more drama. Just concentrate on refocusing your DD on her school work and her interests out of school. Get her busy with age appropriate stuff.

One piece of advice my Mom gave me was never fall out with the parents of your childrens friends as whilst you are arguing your children are playing happily together again.

I've been there my DD is Autistic diagnosed very late yr 12 and had problems with another girl friendship wise. Her physcologist asked her why they were actually friends. A few years on now that they are away from each other work wise etc, their friendship works really well. Her close friendships from school are now nonexistent.

I guess I am saying support her but trust her make her own decisions.