To think apart from mortgage it is possible to live debt free!?

[Moneytalkone]

Just that really, AIBU to think that it is possible to live debt free, that debt isn’t a necessity in life! Apart from a mortgage I suppose if you want to own a house. Had a chat with a friend who claimed that debt is given these days, it’s almost an accepted/expected part of life? What do you think?

My ds is in finance and he said me and dh credit rating is very poor.

If your DS is in finance then he'll also know that he could lose his job for checking your credit rating without your permission.

I think it is possible, just means going without a lot of things, not having as many choices if anything goes wrong and generally just a more limited lifestyle. If you're on a low income you probably won't be able to save much no matter how much you try.

Nothing to do with the privilege of birth or education or stability or not being in an abusive situation or just plain luck that the world hasn't shat on you too badly, is it?

Absolutely not in my case. I did come from an abusive home, we were poor with a awful childhood. I didn't go to college (I worked instead) and my 'education' was the local failing comprehensive. My 'career' has been within admin so nothing special until now. It's not cut and dry. Those without wealth and education can be debt free because of life choices. It's isn't always about luck.

I think it depends what you call a debt. I feel DH and I live debt free atm, although we both have student loans and a mortgage, we also have about £400 on a credit card and pay for our phones monthly.

I see debt as having £1000+ on credit cards and missing payments on bills etc, and not being able to see a way out of it.

I'm debt free. Don't have a credit card. I occasionally get a sofa on 0% credit purely because I'd rather pay £40 a month and not notice it than lose 4k out my savings. But I've always had the money in the bank so made the choice. Pay cash for cars. DH's broke down terminally last year. I gave him mine and paid 11k for a car for me.

So it is possible but I appreciate I'm fortunate.

If I had to I would put a car on finance. However what I wouldn't do is what a lot of colleagues, etc do and pay for holidays on finance, or brand new BMWs on finance/PCP. There's no need to have a new BMW, fair enough if you can afford it in cash but shackling yourself to such a level of PCP agreement/payment seems bonkers to me when you could get a much cheaper perfectly good car on finance/cash but maybe it works for others.

It is 100% possible to live without debt in the UK and most of Europe thanks to social safety nets that meet basics when people fall on hard times. It’s called living within your means.

In the US and other countries where essentials like healthcare are insanely expensive and those safety nets don’t exist, it’s harder. I was listening to a podcast a few weeks ago, and they were saying that the kind of debt the very poor are walking around with today in the US bears a resemblance to indentured servitude.

The lack of empathy which is inevitably displayed by some on threads like these really saddens me.

Debt isn't simply about living 'beyond your means' for the sake of unnecessary fripperies for many but about absolutely unavoidable expenses which have to be addressed - often for the sake of continued employment (in the case of replacing or repairing a vital car) or one's health (in the case of replacing a boiler for heating and hot water).

Even those who try to save for a rainy day, and particularly those on a low income, are increasingly finding their savings (if they've been able to save at all) simply aren't keeping up with the cost of living when it comes to having to break into them. This is compounded of course by having to live in the here and now in the meantime where ever increasing prices for just about everything you can think of - and generally stagnant wages - mean that the amount many can save diminishes, or is prevented altogether. Thus greatly increasing the possibility of incurring debt for all sorts of essential reasons.

It's all very well talking about responsible choices and obviously I'm not advocating taking a loan for a fancy holiday if you'd struggle to repay it but what a number of people refuse to recognise is that some people have little or no choice when it comes to accruing debt. No one's yet mentioned, I think, those in financially or otherwise abusive relationships.... I've seen a number of threads over the years here where a woman's only chance of escape has been a credit card (for deposits, moving costs etc) If she can muster the courage to leave surely it's preferable to go into debt doing it than stay and endanger herself or her children?

I'm also saddened by the holier than thou attitude of people whose circumstances have, altogether, been 'privileged' enough to avoid debt. Privileged doesn't necessarily mean you're living in luxury but if you've been able to avoid debt by being relatively frugal, you've still been fortunate in being able to do that. Various circumstances will have combined to let you manage.

And funnily enough, the age old advice of getting a' better' job isn't that simple. If you can, then of course you'd be foolish to turn it down but plain fact is there aren't enough so called better jobs for everyone who'd like one. And if there were, who the heck would be providing the services low paid work typically entails? If people can't manage a basic standard of living on a full-time wage then we should be questioning both individual employers and the wider economy about that, because these are jobs that need to be done..... instead of berating people struggling to make ends meet on a daily basis who sometimes (increasingly often) have NO choice but to go into debt.

I appreciate it'd be impossible to accurately analyse exactly why debt is accrued but I'd be very interested to see what percentage (of unmanageable) debt is taken out for arguably unnecessary reasons (holidays, brand new top of the range cars) and how much is taken out because people have no other option. As in continuing to travel to their job when there is no alternative employment within walking distance, and when they can't afford to move closer. And I'd like to compare those reasons across, say, the last five years, with data from 15 to 20 years ago.

As for the idea that if people can afford to service debt, then they can afford to save in anticipation of future expenses, another poster has already eloquently explained why that theory isn't straightforward. Strangely, very few low paid people can realistically 'afford' their debt repayments but what else can they do? In practice this means they will go without in other areas in order to do so, making an already stressful life even more unpleasant. Reducing heating and eating (both quality and quantity) comes to mind. Swerving health issues because you can't afford prescription charges or dental fees. Selling what you can (usually for a pittance). Until eventually there's nothing left to give. Hence we see increasing reliance on food banks and other types of charity.

If life was a level playing field then I'd have more sympathy with those who believe debt is easily avoidable but it's not. Far from it.

only because you stressed at the end multiple was a choice.

Yeah, in the same way having only one child is a choice too. Lots of people choose to stop at one for a variety of reasons - they can't afford two, they don't want to make further financial sacrifices, they don't think they can cope with two...all sorts of reasons.

But choosing to have multiples is a decision that, for most families, means financial sacrifice. Children are expensive and two lots of childcare, food, clothing, uniform isn't cheap. Which is why lots of families stop at one or two because they know they can't afford more.

Sometimes you have to put your head before your heart. I'd love multiple dogs but I know I couldn't cope with the impact it would have on my life (insurance costs, walking, food etc.) so I only have one. It's a similar principle. For now, my head is ruling my heart. One day when I'm retired and have more time on my hands, I'll have multiple dogs!

mambo

He sorts our mortgage, too, with our permission. We just manage to get his wisdom for free . He's too busy to be checking family credit rating, for fun.

Of course, some people are in debt through absolutely no fault of their own, but they are the minority. There are millions of people with high levels of debt. Most of those will be in that situation through their own poor choices.

God some of these posts are so smug.
I was debt free for the first 50 years of my life & then I became a single parent after ending an abusive relationship.
Due to lack of social support & a chronic health problem I can only work part time and no I can’t take in ironing or get a bloody weekend job.
It’s easy to sit in judgment of others when you have two incomes coming in and a comfortable buffer of savings. I’ve run my savings down completely & I dread anything like a boiler breadown.
I don’t spend on new iPhones etc but I simply don’t earn enough to survive on.
People need to recognise their privilege & get down off their high horses. Not everybody lives in Mumsnet land.

I see debt as having £1000+ on credit cards and missing payments on bills etc, and not being able to see a way out of it.

This is an interesting viewpoint. Debt is only when you can't afford to pay back what you owe.

I see debt as not owning something, the things you pay for monthly, including your mortgage, as home belongs to the mortgage provider.
My view is you don't own it, it isn't yours until it's paid for and I like owning my things.

There is massive privilege here. Many people are in debt due to very hard circumstances - spouse leaving, partner's death, disability, unemployment, children with special needs.

Not all debt is people buying wants they can't afford.

mamboitaliano I think it's the opposite. My dm worried herself sick if the cooker failed, and my father owned badly maintained cars that failed regularly. All 6 of us on free school meals throughout school. It was chaotic. I am careful BECAUSE I learned how to not to do it by watching.

in the old days things didn't cost as much.

I think relative to income, they did. It's just that people often saved and went without rather than getting into debt.

So many threads on here where dishwashers, tumble dryers, microwaves, fan ovens etc. are all considered absolute necessities. Same as brand new widescreen TV's, the latest games consoles, new cars on finance etc.

There doesn't seem to be any concept of waiting and saving for things you want. The majority of the furniture in my house is second/third hand because we couldn't afford new. We can now, but it all looks and works perfectly well, so why waste the money?

My sofa, for example, is at least 20 years old and third hand. We bought cheap covers to smarten it up and use throws to protect it. We've only just bought a new one this month because the springs have finally collapsed and it's just not as comfortable as it was. But if we didn't have the savings, we'd just make do.

No debt here, even mortgage paid off. But I have a very modest life. I love it but I know it wouldn't be for everyone
Terrified of debt, had an alcoholic twat of a dad and a couple of financially abusive boyfriends before I found mumsnet ha ha. Absolutely remember the fear and shame of debt collectors and the utter feeling of impotence and futility???
I know I'm lucky, I feel for people who are responsible for families etc. I think any interest over 30% should be fucking illegal.

People need to recognise their privilege & get down off their high horses. Not everybody lives in Mumsnet land.

I think people are actually very sympathetic to people who are struggling through no choice of their own. Illness, disability, becoming a carer for children or a partner are all things that could happen to anyone and of course those people deserve sympathy and help.

But millions of people aren't in that position and are struggling because they've made poor choices. You can have sympathy for the former group while acknowledging that the latter could do things differently.

It's just that people often saved and went without rather than getting into debt

Or bought it on credit or account.

It is as long as you have a well paid job and aren’t affected by redundancy/sickness etc.

Apart from our mortgage DH and I have no other debts. No credit cards, store cards or car finance. We even pay all of our insurances in a lump sum rather that have direct debits for those.

We are both conscious that we don't want our lives to revolve around credit - however I can see how it is easy to do so.

We have 2 young DDs and choose not to go abroad every year, our cars aren't old old but aren't brand new either.

Each to their own but this is how we prefer to live.

I think relative to income, they did. It's just that people often saved and went without rather than getting into debt absolute rubbish!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No privilege in my life and been shat on by circumstance more than once . Never went to uni even though back then it was free and I had the grades but it was just not something that was aspired to my social and economic group. In fact only one person I knew who I grew up with went to university and he was exceptionally bright.
Still managed to live debt free.

When I grew up in the late 60s and early 70s almost everyone I knew was poor but still paid a few pennies to the man from the Pru each month.

Or bought it on credit or account.

Not necessarily. Of course some people did but plenty of others didn't.

absolute rubbish!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why is it rubbish? You/your family might have gone into debt for things but not everyone has done the same. My parents were relatively well off but still didn't splash huge amounts on new things - they saved and bought second hand and kept stuff until it fell apart.

Nobody needs to buy stuff brand new. They just want to, or think it's more convenient to buy now and pay later.

On average, full-time workers could expect to pay an estimated 7.8 times their annual workplace-based earnings on purchasing a home in England and Wales in 2018.

Let me not even start on the price of travel.

Yes we can all go without a holiday- many of us do. But travel, housing, food, heating- these are non negotiable and they are crippling people.
This is not a case of scrimping and saving ....lord so many mn have no idea what it is like for the younger generation!

In this vein, and in the interest of looking at the issue of household debt from a macro level, this is a fascinating (if slightly old) lecture by Elizabeth Warren from her pre-political when she was a law professor specializing in bankruptcy. Really worth watching, I found it very educational.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A