Am I being manipulated here?

[Realmumstuff]

Hi, wasn't sure where to put this...

I think I know the answer is yes but really want some advice here. It's a bit of a long story but will try and keep it as short as possible.

DD changed schools in year 4 and made a good friend called M who at first DD was best friends with, me and my partner became pals with the parents and all was well. Then it all became very full on, wanting to spend every minute together...my DD was changing and found it too much and eventually over the years although they are still friends they are not close at all (v different kids). We are still friends with the parents.

In year 5 a girl joined, I'll call her R, DD and R have a lot in common and became very close. I became friends with R's mum and this friendship was very important to my DD (still is). M became very jealous of R and made life difficult for DD and R (I get it, it can't have been easy). All us mums are friends although R's mum insists she is not close to M's mum (not sure why she tells me this).

I tried to get R, M and DD together several times but the jealousy from M was too much. R's mum did the same and again M's jealousy was too much. R's mum said R doesn't get on with M at all but adores my DD. So we all agreed that R and DD would meet up away from M, not secretly...we all discussed this and was all honest, DD would also meet up with M away from R. R's mum still maintained R doesn't like M and won't be spending time with her.

So fast forward to year 7, R had to move schools but still is close enough to meet with DD so although DD was upset things still kind of worked, DD made some new friends. M rolled along and made new friends and occasionally M and DD got together but DD still close with R and they talk every day. I am still close to both parents. It was at this point my DD's confidence took a nose dive and really struggles in social situations.

Fast forward to year 8. M's parents told us they are moving M to R's school. R's mum not happy, maintaining they are not close and doesn't want M in Rs class. DD ok with it and will remain in her current school as doing v well.

So FF to now....M's parents had 2 separate drinks. We were asked to one and Rs parents (as well as some of our old friends) were asked to the second, I found out about this from R's mum who said she really wanted it to be one big drink together but said she thinks M's mum is jealous of my and her friendship. I was a bit annoyed by this too and agreed with R's mum.

So FF a few weeks we then had some drinks for a few parents. I invited both R and M's parents. R said she couldn't as they had tickets to an Xmas light show that day, M's mum said they would all love to and that M and DD can take the little ones to the park, lovely I thought. So DD texted R to say it's a shame she couldn't make it. R said that she was waiting for M to arrive as they were going out, my DD was really upset by this as she thought she was seeing M, when R asked M's mum that my DD was expecting M to be with her today all we heard was 'well that was never the intention' M ended up sleeping over at R's. DD ended up by herself. As we had a lot of our friends around I didn't feel It was right to ask where M was to M's mum but I was very angry about it...not sure how I held it in! It now turns out that R and M have seen each other a number of times without my DD. R and M's mum have not mentioned a thing to me. I still hear how they are not close from R's parents. DD is still v close to R and are always talking. She seems more like her old self, but can I risk her dropping her like hot bricks? R is the only one who seems to be honest, her mum nor M's mum doesn't seem to be.

My partner says to drop both of them and leave them to it. Thing is, that's not me. I want to talk this out and work out wtf is going on! What do I do? My DD still wants to meet with R especially.

Sorry about the long message! Any advice you could give would be great!

If you're genuine friends with these women, of course continue to see them.

It's easy to say and less easy to do sometimes, but try to step back from your dd's friendship dynamics. She has other friends, and it's good that her other two friends are getting along. If you feel like your own friends are gaslighting you with the "they cant stand each other" stuff then feel free to challenge them on that (as long as they bring it up, not you) but examine your own feelings too. Is it possible you're a bit put out that your dd is no longer at the centre of the friendship group?

I honestly didn't follow but I really think you need to let your dd make friends or not make friends with whoever she wants and not worry about it and maybe you find a friend that isn't your dd friends parent .

Why has her anxiety become so bad recently?

I totally agree with @WorraLiberty.

daughter asks for my help to sort things out do I say no,
Yes you say no she's old enough to sort it out herself now . She needs to learn how to deal with these things herself it's part of growing up . You are making her anxious, relax and let her find her way she's too old for her mum to step in and do what exactly?

OP I have been in your shoes and I managed to make myself and my DD very miserable. DD was painfully shy when tiny and I over-compensated by organising play dates, attempting to befriend other mums and generally becoming very over-invested in her friendships. It came from a good place but basically, I acted like a massive prat. Since she started high school I have completely stepped back, she knows I'm here if she needs me but I'm not micromanaging her. She's blossoming and learning a much healthier approach to friendships and I feel happier and almost liberated. Try to step back, give both of you some space to breathe and explore other friendships.

Stop helicoptering them! The dynamic is possibly different when your DD isn't there. YABU and over invested!

And I'm not sure why your title is am I being manipulated here ? The answer is no !!

@Realmumstuff, I would step back gently from the ‘friendship’ you have with the two mums.
Tell your dd that you have no idea why the parents were lying but that sometimes adults do weird things too. Tell her to forget about the adults and to concentrate in her friendship with R and M (and whoever she wants to be friends with).
Remind her that friendship change as you get older. That’s normal so she might see changes with M and R too (such as we weren’t really friends in Y5 but now are getting on extremely well in Y8).
Your dd is asking you to help her navigate her friendship with the CHILDREN not to find out why adults told lies or who is friend with who etc...

Tbh the two mums seem to make things much more complicated than they need to. They also are both trying to get you in their side. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have now decided that they are supporting each other and turning onto you instead (of each other).
Let it go. It will. Ask your life much easier and your dd’s life easier too.

Firstly, back off and stop meddling in your daughters friendships. It’s weird.

Secondly, it looks like they are doing exactly what you and R’s mum did a few years ago? Yet you seem to have a problem with that? Oh dear.

I will take the sensible advice of stepping back but hear me out here, if my daughter asks for my help to sort things out do I say no, you have to work it out yourself? That to me is not good parenting.

Yes that is what you do. It is not good parenting to want to sweep in and solve problems for your child. I have a friend who does this and becomes fiercely partisan about anything that bothers her child and it has fed her child's anxiety - still dealing with the aftermath at age 20.

Solving problems for them is a short-term solution only. it is good parenting to listen to your child, talk to them about the issues, maybe offer some advice or talk through the various options but it is not helpful to immediately talk about the other people as behaving very badly and to try to solve the problem for her.

And at this age it can be very difficult to try to maintain friendships with adults while the children drift apart or fall out. We've all had it happen. It only works if you just put the children's relationship to one side completely.

I'm clearly reading the OP differently from everyone else as it sounds to me as though the OP is disappointed that the honest and open approach used between the families in the past has been thrown over and they are now making plans together whilst actively pretending not to. It's not that the girls are spending time together that is the problem, but the deliberate lies about it.

Whatever the reason, the concerted effort the others are going to in order to hide their friendship is hurtful. The OP might be full on, she might not, but it's pretty mean to accept her hospitality while going out of their way to conceal the friendship between the girls.

Thanks Charityconundrum, you've got it spot on.

I hate the lies and yes I maybe full on and I do see I need to step back. My OH thinks we must encourage new friendships, invite as many people as possible over so she can make friends. That really is too much for my DD, I'm all for letting her decide choose who and when she wants to see. Be that new friends or R or M or both. I just would like it all in the open as we said we would be. Right, I'll leave this alone now as I don't think going over the same thing is helpful but thanks for all your advice.

No you’re not being manipulated, this has (quite literally) nothing to do with you. Your daughter will sort out her own friendships, stop meddling.

I would stop over Investing in this , have less contact with both the mums and encourage your daughter to have some new hobbies and make some additional friends, this sounds quite toxic .

I don't think I followed that very long post but it's not necessary for the parents of children who are friends to be friends as well. You seem annoyed that the parents are getting together without you even though you and your daughter have done the same in the past? What is the difference between the other two girls meeting up without your DD and your daughter meeting up with them one at a time?

If your daughter's asking you for help to resolve the issues, you could try:

*asking her what she thinks she wants you to do and then discussing it and working out whether it's really something sensible for you to do or whether there's something [else] she can do for herself.

*giving her space to talk things through

*helping her help herself - would she find some of this easier if she writes it down or role plays conversations she wants to have with you first

It's always possible someone won't turn up at a social event you're expecting them to be at - whether for reasons you think are good or bad. So it's worth thinking through a plan with your daughter for when people don't arrive - does she feel less anxious if she has a 'job' to do? can she think through who else is likely to be there who she gets on with? does she have space to retreat to/the ability to leave? If it's a mainly adult party with an expected small selection of younger teenagers you're holding at home, does she need explicit permission to leave/establish a separate bit of party in a different room? [all the best parties have separate kitchen parties!]

You can in the future get guests to be really clear about who's coming to your events - say you need precise numbers for catering and go back and ask when people are vague. I wonder if there was mass miscommunication here - M had preexisting plans with R and had never intended to attend your party with her mother, whilst you and your daughter were assuming (not unreasonably) that she was.

None of that helps with the rejection/crossed wires of a friend arranging to do something else with another mutual friend when you're expecting their company, but it looks at some of the inherent social anxiety provoking bits of the situation.

What does your daughter want from H and M now? I think if she were posting directly asking for advice about what to do when a friend doesn't turn up when you're expecting them, in circs where you're anxious about the situation, and you find out that the friend was with a mutual friend instead, the sensible advice to her would be to find better friends.

If M is a really good friend, your daughter might want to try raising the issue and seeing if they can talk it through - did M know your daughter was expecting her? does M know about her social anxiety? [is it miscommunication?]. But she'd have to do that herself. And she might decide it's not worth the hassle and better to slow down the interaction and let the friendships become less close.

So M and R are not allowed to be friends and can’t see each other without your daughter?

But...Daughter is allowed to meet up with both individually🤷‍♀️ Sounds like you just don’t like your daughter not being the chosen one.

You need to give your daughter space and let her work this out for herself. As for the mummy's do you value their friendship? Do you have your own friends ,if so drop them like a hot potato.

I would be a bit miffed too tbh. If they originally didnt get on and now having sleepovers but nothing you can do without seeming over protective and interfering. Let them all sort it it (so hard though I know)

I can understand you feeling upset that the parents aren't being honest/upfront, but they may be feeling awkward considering the past and not mentioning it in order to downplay it and not upset your DD.

If R's mum had said they couldn't attend the party as they were going out and taking M with them, they may have felt it was unnecessary to add that bit on, or feel awkward in that they felt they were leaving your DD out. Would you have said or intimated that DD was left out?

If M's mum had said that M wouldn't be attending as she was going out with R and parents and having a sleepover, then again that may have felt awkward for similar reasons. I think this is down to your previous dynamic from primary school, in that you're still involved as though your DD is at primary, and I get it, because you feel your DD is vulnerable due to her mental health.

It might be good, as you've already realised, for DD to grow friendships away from those she knew at primary, and hopefully going forward she will become less anxious as she grows older.

You are over invested,let them get on with it.

So we all agreed that R and DD would meet up away from M, not secretly...we all discussed this and was all honest, DD would also meet up with M away from R. R's mum still maintained R doesn't like M and won't be spending time with her.

This was agreed when the kids were in year 6. And they're now in year 8 or 9? And a lot has changed, including that R and M are now at school together without your DD.

I just don't think it's fair to hold everyone to comments that are years and years old at this point and made in relation to a very different set of circumstances.

It wouldn't occur to me to have to notify a third party of every change in my kids feelings towards specific friends. Their worst crime seems to be an attempt to avoid awkwardness/hard feelings on your DD's part.

Too many Ms, Rs, Ps I gave up

Me too.

My advice would be, stop acting like a kid and try having a grown up social life. See who you want to see don’t use the kids in the middle of it.