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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To pull out of buying this flat

90 replies

WithKumdud · 06/01/2020 17:55

My offer was accepted 4 months ago, but they've been slow even though they know I need to move for work by Feb.

Still lots of outstanding questions and they have refused to buy an indeminity policy for where they have breached the lease with their alterations.

I feel like they are running down the clock so I just press ahead, but I'm not going to spend 450k on something unless all the boxes are ticked.

Its reaching that point where I will either have to exchange or just start looking to rent.

Would you just pull out and not feel guilty?

OP posts:

JoJoSM2 · 06/01/2020 19:55

I’d pull out.

viques · 06/01/2020 20:21

Is it a freehold or leasehold flat? If leasehold and they have done alterations prohibited by the lease then you will not be in a happy place if the leaseholder gets snotty, or sells the lease on and the new leaseholders get nasty. I would walk away. It's the dead season for selling, so a live buyer with a deadline, a mortgage agreement in place and a solicitor wanting to be paid would be anEA and sellers dream.

beautifulxdisasters · 06/01/2020 23:26

If you're really keen on the flat I'd say if they get an indemnity policy and solve the other queries by end this week I'd consider proceeding. If not I'd run very, very far away. It's their fault OP not yours!

Original poster

WithKumdud · 07/01/2020 11:34

That is concerning about the imdemity insurance, so basically unless the landlord has it in writing that it's ok then i wont buy it.

It's share of freehold but the solisitor just says thats estate agent jargon and not really that much better. is that right?

The sellers say they spend 14k on the works, i think that's irrelivant if they breach the lease!

How can I get somewhere to rent for 6 months? its all 12 months here. that's whats making me think might go ahead with it as the money lost on renting (i have a very large deposit so the mortgage payments are very small) might be about the same as money lost from breach of leashold. i just don't want hassel.

OP posts:

Original poster

WithKumdud · 07/01/2020 12:31

shameless bumping :)

OP posts:

KnickerBockerAndrew · 07/01/2020 12:39

I would call the agent now, tell them to pass on the message that unless all queries are answered and indemnity insurance purchased by the end of this week, and unless exchange happens within a fortnight, you are out. DO NOT buy this flat because it'll save you money in the short term on renting- this is a huge financial commitment, and you're meant to love it.
(I am 6 months on from offer accepted, and no exchange date within sight. Am hovering on the brink of doing something similar myself. It's crap isn't it.)

NorthernLightss · 07/01/2020 12:41

The money spent on renting for 12 months, but only needing 6 months, might be a smaller loss than going ahead with this flat purchase.

Don't bank on being able to easily offload it later.

People might be able to help more if you can specify your location. If you're single and there's lots available on the market, a flat share / lodger situation might tide you over.

PeaBea · 07/01/2020 12:42

Leases might be one year long but usually have a 6 month break clause which means you can give notice from this point. Notice is usually 2 months. You can negotiate this though so don't panic about having to rent a place for a year's term minimum.

Swinesinsleepingbags · 07/01/2020 12:47

Are you moving to a new area and new job, the flexibility of 6 months rent maybe beneficial. I wouldn't spend 450k just to save on a year's rent and end up with an flat that you will struggle to sell on.

anon2000000000 · 07/01/2020 12:47

It sounds as if they don't want to get the indemnity policy (£50) because they know they will be in breach of the lease.

Walk away, even if you continue, this will flag up again should you decide to sell on.

There will be more flats, better flats for you that are problem free.

moonlight1705 · 07/01/2020 12:50

Personally in your situation I would look to rent for 12 months and re-evaluate the flats that then come on the market. You might find you like a particular area more than you realised once living there for a bit (unless you already know the area very well).

We had something similar with a house and it turns out that the vendors had put it on the market another 6 times after we pulled out as they kept on faffing everyone around. Sometimes it just does not get resolved.

Hereward1332 · 07/01/2020 12:58

What share of the freehold would you be buying? Obviously if it's a conversion with 2 flats each owning 50%, the chances the freeholder will ask for the breach to be remedied are very different to being one of twenty.

Original poster

WithKumdud · 07/01/2020 13:08

That's really useful to know about break clauses! Didn't know this existed. I dont know the area that well, but need to move there. For such a huge amount of money I really should be sure. It's got a lovley view but ideally I would want a house. It's in brighton with a sea view.

It's a 10% share (well 2 shares of the 20 for the 10 flats), would they all have to agree for the breach? Then does that last forever and will be fine to sell on?

I've given my ultimatum.

I know I'll have to pay at least 1kin solistors fees if I pull out now, but that is small change in the grand scheme.

Thanks for all your help. Really glad I decided to rejoin mumsnet again after a few years break

OP posts:

blackfriars · 07/01/2020 13:09

With my property lawyer hat on, all the advice to walk away without anyone having any knowledge of the extent of the breach is ridiculous.

What is the covenant in the lease that the alterations have breached? Is it against structural/external alterations? If so, are the alterations carried out truly structural? How is the property owned now - is the freehold owned by a management company in which each leaseholder has a share? If so, are the other flat-owners aware of the breach and have they indicated that they do/do not have any objections?

Chances are you cannot get an indemnity policy here as the freeholder (i.e. the other flat-owners) will be aware of the breach - you simply cannot insure in these circumstances (where the party with a possible claim is aware of the breach). What your solicitor should be trying to get is a retrospective licence for alterations or even a letter of consent from the owner of the freehold to the alterations.

The real question here is 'what is the risk'? What is the risk of you buying the flat, taking the breach of the lease into consideration? Who could possibly have a claim against you and what would that claim be? No court will order specific performance (reinstating the alterations) in these circumstances and nobody has suffered any loss so far as I can see, so to me the risk is negligible!

Your solicitor should be explaining all this to you - ask them to. Unfortunately most high street conveyancers are simply following a box-ticking procedure and do not drill down to the real question whenever anything like this comes up: what is the actual risk to me?

You shouldn't feel guilty about pulling out of a purchase you aren't comfortable proceeding with, but don't flee in a panic without understanding all the facts.

Original poster

WithKumdud · 07/01/2020 13:22

freehold owned by a management company in which each leaseholder has a share?

yes

If so, are the other flat-owners aware of the breach and have they indicated that they do/do not have any objections?

very unlikey they know, its been months trying to get information and the only response was it was expensive to do and makes the flat better.

Ok im going to totally out myself (i hope mn will let me delete this thread in few weeks) but the breaches are removing a wall (non supporting) to make a kitchen dinner and putting wooden flooring in throughout the flat when it's only allowed in the kitchen and bathroom.

The wall im less worried about as it isn't structural. But the flooring does worry me - don't want to feel like i have to tip toe after spending a fortune on a flat and don't want to get into a dispute with the person below.

What does your property lawyer hat think about that?

My solisitor has probably been slow as there are still outstanding questions and they want to know more before talking to me. He only really gives me updates when I phone up, but does seem very box ticky

OP posts:

WhenOneDoorClosesAnotherOpens · 07/01/2020 13:33

I dont know the area that well, but need to move there.

If you do not know the area well OP then I would rent for 6-12 months before buying as you will get a better feel for where exactly you want to live in the new area.

Disfordarkchocolate · 07/01/2020 13:35

My advice to walk away was mostly based on moving to a new area. It takes a while somewhere new to know the best area for you, not just where you think you want as a visitor.

MayDayHelp · 07/01/2020 13:45

If you are looking for a short term rental place it could be worth having a look on Airbnb and messaging hosts to see if you can get a deal for a 3-6 month rental. We have had similar requests for the place I manage and if there’s no other bookings in that time we’d definitely go for it and give them a huge discount on normal prices as it’s longer term that usual.

Original poster

WithKumdud · 07/01/2020 14:39

I know the area quite well, been visiting for a long time and friends in the area. But I could know it more.

I was thinking about air b and b but even if I find something perfect tomorrow it could take 6 months! So might be better renting as brighton in the summer they wont be happy with someone long term

I've given them until the end of the week to get things in order, realistically that is a hard deadline.

I've not rented for a while, but there's lots of avaliblity. Is it possible to take a rental place online? Its a 4 hour journey and not really worth me visiting just for a rental, even if it's not great i'll be moving out and unlike selling can just leave. You can tell a lot from streetview

OP posts:

Disfordarkchocolate · 07/01/2020 15:45

We moved to somewhere we had visited lots, we're very glad we ended up having to rent for a while. It took longer than I thought to find exactly what I wanted in this place. Take a good look at the rental market, we have some flats near us that offer short term let's. If you are moving to work for a large employer they may be able to offer some advice.

JoJoSM2 · 07/01/2020 15:59

So the worst that could happen would be putting up a non structural wall and some carpet down?

Would you still want the flat with a separate kitchen and carpeted?

Actionhasmagic · 07/01/2020 16:04

We had buyers like this. They messed around for 3 months then took a huge six figures off their original offer. We ditched them

Original poster

WithKumdud · 07/01/2020 16:13

Is that really the worst that can happen?

I honestly no I hate carpet and love the kitchen dinner. The whole reason I offered on this place was because nothing needed to be done. It's the uncertaintly more than anything really and worrying that ill be "found out" for breaking the lease

OP posts:

Original poster

WithKumdud · 07/01/2020 16:14

I don't think I've dicked around the sellers, I said originally I wanted to move in Dec and they've taken ages to reply to questions. I have to draw a line eventually

OP posts:

blackfriars · 07/01/2020 16:30

And what are the covenants that have been breached against?

a) structural works? If so, why does the internal wall breach this covenant?

b) having hard-wood floors/removing carpet? If this was ever raised by the tenants below you could most likely solve it by putting a rug down, you wouldn't need to rip up all the flooring that has been installed.

If the other tenants of the building DON'T know about the works then it may be that an indemnity policy is your best bet. I should think that the seller's solicitor has simply said 'computer says no' when your solicitor has asked the seller to pay for it. I would suggest your solicitor responds and points out the seller has breached the lease so therefore needs to pay for the policy. As others have pointed out it is likely to cost in the hundreds not the thousands.

I would ask your solicitor to communicate to the seller's that the seller must pay for the policy and answer all outstanding queries by the end of the week or you'll pull out.

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