To think London house prices are unjustifiably high

[Alanis126]

I was recently visiting London, where I once lived. It was a big big struggle financially and I wasn't sorry to leave. House prices have been stratospheric for 20 plus years and while there have been some small declines in recent years, I saw a central and fairly nice but ordinary sized flat which cost £1m. There are of course many properties costing way more. There are a couple of things in particular that I don't get. Forgetting the £1m central flats, even a very ordinary property in a quiet zone 5/6 area without much in the way of social amenities was £400k plus. While some people have family money, I think it is fair to say most people start their working lives with no or negative net worth. For many the early/mid twenties will be the lowest point if their income and when they most would like to or benefit from having access to social amenities. When even rent in a grotty house share is £800 plus bills, I don't see how it becomes feasible to live while you are trying to build a career. I know there are other cities but what if you have a job in an industry only existing in London? If houses are £2m or £3m then does it matter anymore what the price is? Could they be worth £5m, £10m,£150m? And while I accept people may still choose a London lifestyle, if someone has London equity and doesn't enjoy their job, is it only fear of being priced out for good that stops them relocating and having a total change of lifestyle?

Honestly if I was a 20 yr old with good prospects I would leave.

Yep, because the grass is always greener somewhere else isn’t it 😏

"Honestly if I was a 20 yr old with good prospects I would leave"

Where would you go doobied? I suppose it depends partly on your skills, wage levels in the destination, and of course whether you have the relevant language skills. Still, on the other hand you're likely to have higher direct healthcare costs (obviously we have indirect costs through taxation here), student loan remains outstanding and you're still liable for interest I think - don't know about tax rates elsewhere but I think unlikely to be lower once you take into account local taxes; pensions and wage rates I don't know about.

But it would be interesting to hear from people who have left and in what ways their destinations do things better - I often think it's surprising we don't look more at how other places do things!

I think London is fantastic city not sure it's the best but I have the disposable income & time to enjoy it. As @Alanis126 says if you're spending all your time working & the money you earn from it goes on housing costs or commuting costs what the point. And of course young people shouldn't be throwing away their money but if 25 yrs olds can't go out for avocado on toast & a bit of a shop then the city could certainly lose its vibrancy. Remember young people may buy coffee but they don't smoke, go to the pub or go clubbing like past generations.

Yep, because the grass is always greener somewhere else isn’t it

well no one knows that but the UK has very high levels of inequality.

The thing is, I remember looking at flats in Brighton in about 2000. They’d just pushed past the £100k barrier, much to everyone’s horror. People kept saying that prices were bound to fall and I was mad to even look.

@hairquestions2019 me, I'm not sure, tbh & too late for me.
Friends children's who were GPs etc seem to be doing very well in Australia. And again some who are in teaching have moved to Ireland & the UAE. 2 who studied engineering have gone to Singapore.

I'm the child of immigrants who believed the grass was greener and it was. I think it's incredibly narrow minded to assume you can't improve your life by moving. DH is also an immigrant so our DCs have EU passports & are bilingual, one is off to work in France for 6 months this yr.

Also the increase in the tech industries & remote working will surely make location & commuting less of an issue going forward.

I think the French health system is superior to the NHS.

Higher taxes are not necessarily a bad thing as long as people feel they are getting a good deal. I work in education & think it's no surprise that countries with happier people have higher taxes. UK children are unhappy compared to lots of countries so we are going wrong somewhere.

Higher taxes are not necessarily a bad thing as long as people feel they are getting a good deal. I work in education & think it's no surprise that countries with happier people have higher taxes. UK children are unhappy compared to lots of countries so we are going wrong somewhere.

Do you have stats to back this up?
I know that both France and Denmark, whose taxes are higher than the UK, have vastly higher suicide rates than the UK....

Just read up on the scandi countries & the Netherlands.

I don't think the French suicide rate can necessarily be linked to higher taxes as if you look at the stats it's very regional & rural France is very, very different to metropolitan areas. Plus it's higher in certain sectors such as the Police. France lacks the conversation & public health messages around suicide which we are better at here. I don't know much about Finland, but Google tells me their suicide rate has fallen to their 1990 levels after a "decade-long public health drive to improve treatment and support for those at risk, as well as to make media reporting of the issue more responsible."

that should say
fallen to less than half

Also I posted this

countries with happier people have higher taxes

not higher taxes = happier people.

North east here. You get a bloody mansion here for London flat prices!

I've always wondered about the salary difference. I'm single, in a professional job, I earn £30k pa and live in the centre of a north west city (the nice bit too!). This affords me a relatively comfortable life. My 2 bed flat is just over £500pcm mortgage.

I've looked if I move to London, and my same job would be 40-45k. No way would I have anywhere near the quality of life, the pay increase wouldn't remotely cover the increased cost of living.

It depends on the role.

You got to think as well that in many areas once you get to a certain level of salary that is the ceiling without a move or without waiting a while for someone above you to leave or retire

You also need to be realistic about your capabilities & needs. Not everyone can get that 250k job, not everyone who gets it can do it. Many high fliers burn out.

"Isn't part of what makes a city great the ability to have affordable accommodation that allows disposable income to enjoy socialising etc? There could be all the museums and galleries you want but if vast vast swathes of people cannot afford to live there, doesn't that make it a great city for very wealthy people rather than a great city? I recently visited Vienna."

London does have affordable housing - about 24% in london as a whole is social housing (varies a lot from borough to borough I think) and then you have some private sector rentals supported by housing benefit (though this always confuses me as there are also issues that many ll won't/can't accept hb - anyway, leaving that aside, there is obviously some affordable housing.) But not enough for all those who want to live in London, obviously. But I suspect there never could be - I doubt that there is a natural limit to demand that could be met.

People can afford to live in London, people can afford to buy and live a lifestyle.

Just as has already been said, you and others don't want to compromise, what you want is cheap flats in Hampstead and Highgate.

I thought the high suicide rate in Finland was because they have literally months with no daylight.

If I was in my 20s I’d be off to N Zealand in a heartbeat. Especially if I had a mountain of student debt which would instantly be written off.

Do friends still club together to buy - that seemed to be a way of "getting on the ladder" in the 1980s and 1990s but I'm not sure if it happens much any more? But maybe that is just my impression, and it was never a huge trend anyway!

I thought student debt wasn't written off if you emigrated, also? In fact I think one of the reason the new system was introduced as loans rather than graduate tax was so that grads would still be liable to repay even if they went to work abroad? (amblles off to check)

You’re right, it’s changed. But apparently actually paying outside the UK tax system is such a logistical nightmare most people give up trying.

Ah I see! - but even then I suppose if they return to the UK the whole amount is outstanding.

Though I'm sure NZ has many other advantages regardless of the student loans position - would be great to see the LoTR mountains and the beaches!

My cleaner bought a 2 bed flat with her husband last year on the boundary of zone 5 and 6. She is making around 20K as a self employed cleaner, he is making around 30K as a construction worker, neither speaks English well or has qualifications beyond school level. They had to live in a room quite frugally in an HMO for a couple of years to put together the deposit, and delay having children, it might not be for everyone.

I have an ex colleague who lives in a beautiful big flat in Rotterdam which would cost around €230k (£196.5k) to buy now. Brilliant, very artistic city with good jobs and transport links. German cities outside Munich are also brilliant and not too expensive. If you have your own local business or can work remotely Spain, certain parts of France and Austria are also possible I'd say.