to think that the 'man child' types on here had mothers too?

[littlepaddypaws]

and the probably micro managed / helicoptered their sons from a very young age so in the future so another woman would be expected to pick up the slack, and according to mners, they frequently do. esp now in the christmas run up.
are you brave enough to own up to doing this with your ds ?

i really do believe their mothers are the main reason they are like it.

That's like an adult saying they're fat because during their comparatively brief time spent as a child, their parents made them clear their plates.

The thing about being an adult is adults are supposed to take responsibility for themselves and their own lives, not spend the rest of it blaming their parents.

I’m pretty sure that in the majority of cases it’s just men trying their luck not because of how they were raised but because they see the men around them doing the same.

Because culturally a man who talks about needing to do the washing on the weekend or pondering the meal planning during his work lunch break is going to be given shit about it. Even on here when people pile on SAHM saying they should do the majority of housework, when they go back to work I suggest that the balance is never restored because those things become their job.

Well hopefully it will eventually die out because all of the wimin are raising sons who do everything

Fyi - my ex DH’s mum did everything for him. He moved to uni. Learned to do shit for himself and was 100 x better at running a home and cleaning than me. It’s basically because he thought it was important and didn’t see it as anyone else’s job. Because he wasn’t a dick.

It’s fuck all to do with how you’re brought up. It’s about how you see the world. With entitlement or not.

Why type this? It just sounds as though you don't like boys or men. I think parents who in your opinion 'micro manage' their sons probably 'micro manage' all their children not just the boys. You are also blaming women for a perceived flaw in men. It's all a bit sexist.

My DB is 30 and like this because of DM. Still does all his washing, picks up his washing off the floor, cleans out his car, takes it to the car wash and garage. They were recently at a fairly important family celebration and took 3 hours away to go and pick up DB from the station and drive him to where he wanted to go then wait for him and take him back so he wouldn't miss the celebration. Because he couldn't possibly have taken his own car or gotten a bus to where he wanted to go. Or organise his day better.

Thankfully I escaped at 17 and we have a fairly equal household, though SAHM and DH works long hours. I am overly strict with my DS who is 2 because I don't want him turning out like DB, he must dress himself and put all his clothes in washing basket (even if it takes 2 hours!).

Yup my mum did everything for my brother and he had to learn the hard way when he moved out that there were no fairies

jane you are entitled to your opinion as am i.
are you one of the saidmothers, hence being a bit hostile ?

I agree with you OP.

Quite often their fathers are absent....I've never understood how easily women will have a child with a virtual stranger. To me choosing who would be the father of my DC was a big decision.

When I hear of mums washing, cooking, cleaning and doing laundry for 30 year olds still at home... I simply SMH. It's not the fathers pandering to them.

Obviously this is not the case in every situation.

Ds survived 4 years at uni, and can clean the loo, but it doesn't register on his important list; neither does sweeping the breadcrumbs off the floor, or other things that irritate me. I end up doing them as it is just easier and quicker, and doesn't send my blood pressure through the roof.

He has cooked, washed up and taken the bins out today, so I am getting somewhere, slowly.

Why do people pretend men don’t care about mess.

You might as well say that white slavers turned out that way because they had everything done for them by their black slaves. That's just total victim-blaming nonsense, isn't it.

These "man children" often come from highly patriarchal families where the women run around after the men and do as they're bloody well told ... by the men. Not to do so would equal either beatings or some other form of domestic punishment, or (in the good old days - and often even now) being abandoned with no money.

But sure, blame the hostages for the seige. That makes sense.

I think women kid themselves that the reason their dp/men in general are shit is solely the fault of their mil/those men's mothers. It excuses their DP ("he can't help how he raised") and makes them feel safe that their son won't turn out that way.

But really, do you think you are the first generation to think of parenting well? Also there are several generations on here saying that, and yet there are still men of all ages being lazy man-children. When is this change in parenting going to kick in?

DH Father flew to Europe once or twice a week and was a very distant Victorian patriarchal type. His Mother was a SAHM with a housekeeper and he then lived in catered halls whilst doing two degrees for almost seven years. He was a bit rubbish at chores and had hardly ever had to do anything for himself when we met. What happened was I just wouldn’t do stuff for him, I also worked FT and we lived together for about three years before dc came along.

I distinctly remember very early on him asking me where his socks were. I told him it was down to him and nothing to do with me. We had/have one of the most equal chores and childcare relationships I know of amongst our peer group. If he had been like some of the lazy buggers my friends are married to or some of the guys on here it would have been over. It required effort at first though.

are you one of the saidmothers, hence being a bit hostile

Given my son was doing his own laundry at ten, and at 15, can and does cook meals for the family during the week, no.

Yes, it is very important to find a woman to blame.

I saw an mumsneter admit that neither she (or his father) asked their son to do any chores at all when he was growing up but assured us all he would not expect to be waited on hand and foot when he left home

@WhenISnappedAndFarted Sounds a lot like my husband’s setup. His mother interferes with absolutely everything and gets her back up about my poor housewife skills (I’m not a housewife by the way) if she sees something in our house she deems not up to scratch. Tells me she’ll “show” me how it’s done. I’ve shown her a thing or two myself...

My MIL didn't do everything for DH, yet he still managed to end up as a bit of a man child! She doted on him emotionally but expected him to sort himself out for the most part, even cook for himself if he decided he didn't like what was for dinner (he is still incredibly fussy, by luckily that means he cooks all our meals from scratch). MIL isn't the interfering type and we are close, but I think some men are just lazy and happy to wait for someone else to do the dirty work

I can see your logic OP because I do know men like this who were molly coddled by their mothers and are now molly coddled by their wives.

To the posters saying did they not have fathers, well yes, but they were molly coddled by their wives too so it's what the whole family were all accustomed to!

Also remember that in years gone by this was seen as a normal family set up - it's only really since the 60's and 70's that society started to change and challenge this.

I was brought up in the early years by a single mother who had no choice but to work and when she married my step father they were joint breadwinners. I always wanted a career like my mum and never wanted to be a SAHP.

By contrast, MIL was a SAHP and FIL worked 2 jobs to support his family so it fell to MIL to take on all the childcare/housework. She is very much a matriarch though and didn't allow her children to lift a finger, and this extended to FIL when he retired early through ill health.

So by the OPs logic all 3 of her sons should be lazy useless men who expect to be waited on hand and foot by the women in their lives.

DH and BIL1 married women who wouldn't take shit like that and they've both stepped up and do their fair share WILLINGLY

BIL2 met a prinny who wouldn't lift a finger in case she breaks a nail so he too had to step up, they are separated and BIL is now happily single and RP for their son.

Would they have been different had they each met matriarch types like MIL, who continued to enable the stereotype? Possibly......

I have two boys and what i have realised just how much they want to grow up to be like their Dad and follow what he does.

Society is sexist though. A great point made months back on a related thread was about traditional "man" jobs and "woman" jobs. Go back to the 1950s set up and the father would do a lot more heavy domestic related work that is now redundant/ considerably easier. Gardening a paved/ gravelled garden, using electric mowers/ hedge trimmers mean that gardening is far, far lower maintence in time spent. A low maintainance garden might only need a couple of afternoons effort per year. You can't tinker with a modern car. DIY tends to be outsourced or easy, pre-assembly kits.

Meanwhile improvements in the "women's" jobs inside the house have a lot less benefit of effort. Consumerism means there is much more to tidy and clean. Washing machines and tumble dryers are probably the best game changer along with modern fabrics reducing ironing... the impact of that has reduced by the increase of volume of clothing in the house. Plus parenting is much more hands on and supervisory placing more strain on mothers.

Following a traditional pattern of chores means men gain a lot more leisure time while women lose it.

DH and I both grew up in breadwinner/ SAHM households. For various reasons, I've ended up as a SAHM after working my DCs young childhood (DS has ASD and finds wrap around care too much beyond a school day)

When I was working, different working-out-of-the-house hours meant that gradually I did pick-up more of the domestic burden such as cooking. Maternity leave and being first home with DCs cemented that. DH isn't a man child and is pretty self-sufficient, plus also has phases of major DIY, so he's not the worst example, but it's harder to see the effects of his tidy-as-he-goes style compared to my cataclysmic mess, then big tidy-up style.

I try to encourage my DCs to do a reasonable share. ASD is a complicator. DS2 is more willing, but DS1 getting stewed over it is not helpful. When they think for themselves, I praise their initiative. It's a slow slog though. Coaching and cajoling them through tidying is more work than doing it yourself,and when life is a rush, it's an easy trap to fall in to.

Some women do martyr themselves. They may simply be too busy to play the long game. Some place too much of their self-worth into the household. Some are blind to out-dated internalised mysogeny. Some play power games of control/ golden child. Some bow to peer pressure.

It's complicated and not a one-size answer, but lifestyles of recent decades have changed far quicker than culture.

DH can be fucking useless and I blame MIL's patented cocktail of emotional doting, catatrophising everything (nearly died on every trip on the road etc), doing everything for him as a child but then once he became a teen with his own thoughts and opinions, she completely stepped away and left him with little support and guidance. They went on holiday and left him for Christmas at 16/17, ignored his drug use, failing education etc. Still continued to say how great he was without really doing any parenting.

It's complicated and not a one-size answer, but lifestyles of recent decades have changed far quicker than culture.

1000% this

@ShinyGiratina has articulated so much better than me what I was trying to explain!