To still really worry about the MMR jab?

[pastalady]

My DS of 2 yrs 4 mnths had it today after we put it off for ages because of concerns. Have dreaded him having it because of all the scare stories I have read about it. Read the MMR facts website which made me feel better, but I can't stop thinking about the stories I've read about parents who's toddlers regressive autism/severe illness and even death coincided with the jab and medical people who still keep piping up about it being unsafe.

I really don't know if we've made the right decision. Am I being unreasonable to still feel worried like this so far down the MMR scandle line?

Well i don't mind paying. I am not convinced of MMRs safety when people like Tony Blair refuses to comment when asked whether or not his children had the MMR jab. That to me is like saying it's fine for everyone else's kids but not my own.

My hunch is that Leo had single jabs but then that's Cherie for you. I wouldn't base my decision on his or hers.

Sorry if I'm gate crashing, but I don't understand the rationale for immunising babies against rubella, either. Surely it would be more beneficial to vaccinate girls at puberty, if they have not had the disease by then. And all the arguments about the difficulties of vaccinating girls at that age are going out of the window now the HPV vaccine is being aimed at precisely that age group.

I don't think NHS doctors are allowed to give single vaccinations.

My decision is based on the health of my dd, not Tony and Cherie Blair. I find it wrong that Tony can stand up and try to convince the public that the jab is safe then when it's his own kids he gone for the better safe than sorry approach.

Completely understandable to be worried in view of all scaremongering that goes on. Both my children were born and immunised in France where they don't seem to be aware of this issue. Expressed slight concern to paediatrician (you only ever see a specialist over there) and he thought I was bonkers and started telling me how dangerous measles was etc. Never met a French mother who has given it a second thought. Find this very reassuring - if there really was anything to worry about I am sure this nation of hypocondriacs would be leading the charge.

It may be wrong for them not to stand up and say "Our decision flies in the face of the medical consensus" but she was friends with Carole Caplin so what can you expect...

Anyway, I'm speculating widely. For all I know they gave Leo the full vaccination programme on time and on the NHS.

I'm sure if they did that then Tony would say when asked that they had the jabs all in one. Instead he refuses to comment and i wouldn't trust him as far as i could throw him.

Well neither would I. That's why I don't care what he decided to do regarding MMR.

I think many people go through a panic stage regarding MMR. The health scare hsa been very big. I remember nights spent researching and wondering if I should take my son to Paris for single jabs. It's part of being a parent I fancy. People who are 100% sure either way have it easy.

I remember what helped me was talking to a sympathetic GP friend. Also I came to the realisation that the only and best thing I could do as a parent was evaluate the information that was out there and base my decision on that.

In the other hand, I have just stopped trusting my GP, having as a last strand the fact he wasn't aware that you can get calcium suplements without vitamin D.

Anyway- the 'correct' (i.e. the one of least risk) decision will be different for each child.

DS2 and ds3 have a far higher risk of autism than the general public- 25 to 50 times more likely than the generall public. We know their brother regressed following a viral infection. He is severely auistic and require 24 hour care and will do for the rest of his life. We don't want that for our other children, we would like them to have choices. We know that ds3 'physiologically' is autistic. He has the same gut problems as ds1, when we had him assessed by the autism research unit his urinary profile came out as being the same as is found in many people with autism- basically means he has a leaky gut. He has the same immune system odddities as ds1 (problem immune systems are very common in individuals with autism- epecially those who regress), he has the same food issues as ds1.

When ds2 was born we came up with a 'model' for what we though had happened to ds2 & on the basis of that model avoided/delayed the introduction of certain things (e.g. gluten/casein/antibiotics) including vaccinations.

That very same model (which is very similar to Wakefields- just a bit less specific) was published in Gut journal at the end of last year as a mechanism by which autoimmunity may develop. They didn't mention autism (although many think it is or at least can be an autoimmune condition) but it validated to me what we had done. They also mentioned it as a mechanism by which 2 conditions found in our close family relatives (type 1 diabetes and MS) may develop. I don't know exactly which factors were involved in ds1's regression- I suspect he had a series of 'hits', we've just tried to limit the hits that ds2 and ds3 are exposed to. So far both are developing normally. DS3 I think came very very close. He's half way there with his gut problems and immune system oddities. If I get it in the neck for not vaccinating, so be it, I spend 5 minutes talking to him- talking I don't take talking to my children for granted- and I don't give a stuff what anyone thinks. His risk is individual- it's not little johnny down the roads risk, and we've assessed it based on what we know about him. It's great that MMR is safe for most children, really great, but that doesn't mean its safe for mine.

sorry a model for what we thought had happened to ds1.

gess - I admire your patience in explaining these things again and again.

no because the work hasn't been done. General risk factors are allergic/autoimmune type family histories but lots of people will have those without being at extra risk. Vaccination risk is only ever assessed at the population level. I think the programme would be vastly improved if it would take into account individual risks (both for illnesses and vaccinations).

Thank you berolina- I always resolve not to get drawn in, but somehow never manage it.

gess, thanks for your posts on this thread.

i'm currently trying to decide what to do for dd who is 22 months today.

when she was born i said singles, then a change in circumstances means i can't afford them now. i've been worried about her age and so on and had resigned myself to having to go with MMR and soon.

having read other people's experiences and your incredibly informative posts i'm going to wait another 6 months at the least.

finger's x'd i'll have the funds for singles then.

Remember you can really spread the singles out, there's no need to get them done in the same year (sone people would advise you against that anyway). Measles first. You may decide mumps isn't necessary. Some clincis get you to sign up for all 3, but I don't think Richard Halvorsen's would- he doesn't even recommend all 3 particularly. So if you get stuck try there.

On the other hand if you do go for MMR it will almost certainly be fine anyway. For most kids it is.

I'd also say dose up on vitamin A a little before giving any measles containing jab (cod liver oil is a great source). Don't go overboard- it can be toxic in too high a dose, but to adequately deal with measles the body needs vitamin A- it's the best treatment for measles and saves lives when given by iv, reduces complications etc (in developing countries, although presumably it would help here as well even in well nourished children). Autistic children often seem to have some problems processing vitamin A (google megson vitamin A autism for the work)- which is another theory as to why they might have particular difficulties with measles virus. I keep nordic naturals cod liver oil for children in my cupboard, as that's a very pure brand. Unfortunately only available from nutricenter who are nightmares to deal with.

But on another point, how do you know the MMR or any jab will be fine? It wasn't so long ago there was mercury in these jabs. How do we know there aren't other toxins in the jabs that could cause problems later in life? We don't know and I don't believe GPs know either.

mercury was never in the MMR, although shamefully the UK was about the last place to remove it from the standard paediatric jabs (it's still in jabs in developing countries). And if your child needs a flu jab ask for a thimerosal free brand, not all the brands given to children are. There's no need for a flu jab to contain mercury.

That's actually exactly what my GP said to me when I was talking to him about ds2- I said I was concerned about thimerosal in the DTP and he said if it was removed then they'd just put something else in. At which stage I decided he wasn't getting it! Aluminium is perhaps one of the most concering of the added ingredients- not sure quite how concerning though iyswim.

I also read/heard that some jabs have formaldehyde in which I was shocked about.

My dd had 4 episodes of stopping breathing starting 7 days after the first round of jabs which she had at 10 weeks.

A bf counsellor friend drew my attention to some Australian research regarding "stress induced breathing" after innoculation. It was a very small study but charted critical days etc.

My dd's first episode co-incided with 1 of the critical days as did the 2nd and 3rd.

The paeds etc put it down to silent reflux. I asked for a referral to a consultant and my GP wrote some pretty damning stuff about my personal situation and state of mind in her letter.

The consultant made some noises about RSV causing the breathing issues and also commented that a sure fire way to assure re-election the govt should offer single shots!

I gave dd the reflux meds for a week then stopped. I knew in my heart this was nothing to do with reflux. I even went as far as to ring the woman who did the research in Australia. It wasn't a conversation to allay my fears I have to say.

DD continued to have sporadic breathing but as she spent all her time in my arms I learned to count to 15 then stimulate her by rubbing her hand or squeezing her ear lobe.

We co-slept at night and if I ever did manage to get her into her cot she had a babysense alarm. It only actually went off once and I can't be sure if that was a false positive.

Eventually she had round 2 of the jabs at 9 months and the final set just before her 1st birthday.

I am still incredibly concerned about the effects of MMR altho she doesn't necessarily fall into the "high-risk" category.

meant to add that i am pro vaccination but feel there must be a safer way.

paddlechick- was your dd given pediacel (the 5 in 1)? There's only been one study published apparently on its safety. It invoolved 500 children given an almost identical vaccine who were followed for 3 days, unless they had a serious reaction in which case they were followed for longer. One child in the study had periods of apnoea following the vaccination. The researchers said they thought it was unlikely to be linked but didn't explain why they thought that. Othewr studies on vaccines similar to pediacel have found babies suffering apnoea as well.

Glad she's fine now, must have been a scary time (whatver its cause).