to think school is lying to me?

[MargeSimpsonswig]

My 13 year old DS was diagnosed with autism in August this year and is currently having issues with school refusal. One of the biggest reasons for this is that he is constantly in trouble for low level disruptive behaviour and I have been working hard with various organisations to get help with this. I need to add that I genuinely believe DS is unaware when he is being disruptive as his social skills are very poor and he tends to make very awkward jokes with teachers to mask his uncomfortability in social situations. He told me that making small talk with people who he doesnt like and who he knows don't like him is the worst part of school for him and plays a big role in his non attendance.

The school started a nurture room programme for my DS to attend which is supposed to be a relaxed, homely environment where he learns better social skills. At one of these sessions he said he made an ill judged joke to the specialist ASD teacher, something along the lines of:

Teacher: why are you hungry?
DS: because you didn't come to my house and make me breakfast this morning.

The teacher then made a report to his head of year claiming DS was being threatening and rude and upset the other children in the room. DS was placed in isolation the entire day because he wouldnt admit that he had been threatening. He said they wouldn't give him specific examples of his alleged threats and he remains adamant he only made the joke as above and refused to do his work because he felt the punishment was unfair. He was then told he would be placed in isolation the following day for not completing his work and he has refused to go to school since.

Head of year emailed tonight (2 weeks after i first emailed her explaining DS's version and i would like to clarify what happened). She again said son was threatening and that the teacher has been working with ASD kids for 20 years and she had said DS's behaviour was not consistent with ASD and was pure naughtiness. No specific examples of what he said or did was given.

I spoke to DS again tonight and his story is exactly the same, he told a joke and he cant understand why school is saying this. He is adamant and i believe him.

I know I sound like I'm being precious about DS but I know my son and he has never been violent or threatening. He is extremely gentle and kind and it would take him being physically threated for him to become aggressive. I also k nw DS thinks in a very black and white way and does not lie. He has been very open with me about all other times he has been in trouble with school and fully accepted his punishments as he knew he has broken a rule (e.g. saying a swear word etc., forgetting his tie etc.). Before his diagnosis, he was labelled as a naughty child and my parenting was always questioned and I was told he had no boundaries at home and that's why he misbehaved at school. I always complied and worked with school to enforce punishments at home for misbehaviour and supported schools stance on situations like this but now I know it was his ASD that caused him to misbehave and he has always been so misunderstood. I feel so much guilt for always taking schools side when I can see now how tragically my DS was failed by the system and many mistakes were made (this post would go on forever if I explained).

Sorry for rambling on, I just really don't believe the schools version of events and I don't know how to respond. Would a teacher really make up all of this? (p.s I'm not teacher bashing, my mum was a teacher and I have the upmost respect for what they do but there are bad eggs in every profession).

What should I do?

[Mjlp]

Firstly I would question why the chocolate is still using terms like ASD instead of ASC. Labelling the individual with a 'disorder ' is not very helpful. Autistic Spectrum Condition is much better.

Funny, all the autistic people I know prefer ASD to ASC. I like ASD better myself too, I don't think "disorder" is offensive. I mean by definition an autistic person's development is out of order, so disorder makes sense to me. Condition on the other hand, it just feels like the wrong word completely.

All the autistic people I know also prefer ASD to ASC, as do I. Calling it a condition makes it sound milder than a disorder. Autism can have a very negative effect on someone's life, as we see from this thread. The child is no longer in education, at a time when his education is very important.

[Mulledwineinajug]

It shows quite elaborate theory of mind which is unusual for a teenager with ASC and I'd tend to agree with the teacher's assessment that it is not consisten with autism.

What a load of rubbish. Where’s the elaborate theory of mind?

It’s a clumsy, socially inappropriate joke which shows total social naivety. I don’t know where you see elaborate theory of mind there!

Theory of mind means understanding another person’s perspective - how they might perceive the situation.

The OP’s DS has shown the exact opposite by not understanding context, social relationships, expectations or conventions here.

It’s not even a joke that requires theory of mind but even if it was, it could be copied, parroted, imitated, applied out of context.

It looks really typically autistic to me!

[Poppinjay]

I always amazed at parents who think that teachers lie about students. We see hundreds of students a day. No one has time to sit down and concoct lies. School is a very professional environment and reporting is taken seriously and is done in a factual and impersonal way.

I find this utterly hilarious.

Once you have a child with additional needs, your eyes are very much opened to the amount that school staff lie.

I have been told things by teachers who have then sat in meetings and then flatly denied saying anything even remotely similar.

As with any group of people, some teacher are bad at their jobs and lie to cover their inadequacies and poor practice.

I imagine this teacher overreacted because she was having a bad day and, instead of coming clean and apologising, she is sticking to her story and her colleagues are backing her up. If he really had been threatening in any way, the would be falling over themselves to tell you what he said.

There's very little you can do other than tell your DS that sometimes people behave badly but that doesn't mean that they are bad people. Sometimes people make judgements that are unfair and we don't have a right of reply so we just have to put it behind us and move on with life. It's a tough but important lesson for someone with ASD who assumes that everyone is an honest as he is.

[suggestionsplease1]

'It shows quite elaborate theory of mind which is unusual for a teenager with ASC and I'd tend to agree with the teacher's assessment that it is not consisten with autism.'

What a load of rubbish. Where’s the elaborate theory of mind?

It’s a clumsy, socially inappropriate joke which shows total social naivety. I don’t know where you see elaborate theory of mind there!

Theory of mind means understanding another person’s perspective - how they might perceive the situation.

The OP’s DS has shown the exact opposite by not understanding context, social relationships, expectations or conventions here.

It’s not even a joke that requires theory of mind but even if it was, it could be copied, parroted, imitated, applied out of context.

It looks really typically autistic to me!


The theory of mind is shown in knowing that his comment can antagonise the teacher. Other posters are saying it's a very literal, factual response - but that's not really the case - the underlying understanding is that he is aware it is antagonistic because that teacher doesn't go to his house to make him breakfast on a regular basis.

If he said it deadpan, absolutely straight - trying to explain why he was hungry he might have unintentionally said something funny...a bit like the other poster who reported that her child replied 'yes' to the question 'can you take your coat off' - that is very funny to anyone looking on, and not an untoward response from someone with ASC because they are answering factually - yes they can. It wasn't an instruction to take their coat off, so they don't.

This was a more socially elaborate quick thinking response to my mind, which I maintain, in my experience, is fairly unexpected in ASC.

That said, I'm happy that people disagree, individual experiences of ASCs are incredibly diverse and this is just my perspective and I mean no harm by it, and I won't comment any further on it. I wish the poster and her family better support going forward.

[LastMichaelmas]

We do have a sense of humour, it's just that it might be a bit different from the average person's For example, I know a lot of people with ASD and none of them enjoy laughing sadistically at the pain and embarrassment of others, unlike the average person, if we go by the popularity of talent shows where people who don't realise they're bad singers are subjected to ridicule, or, in the past, the inexplicably popular You've Been Framed. In fact, jokes that exploit absurdity (like a teacher coming to your house to make you breakfast) are quite popular among people with ASD.

We're neither humourless robots nor are most of us unaware that other people have their own thoughts, feelings and perceptions. We're just a bit crap at working out what they are, or, sometimes, too overwhelmed by what we're experiencing to be able to think about it.

[LastMichaelmas]

And I bet I think quicker than you do 😝

[MargeSimpsonswig]

Many display split personalities and can manipulate social situations to their advantage. Is there a possibility OP that your DS is lovely for you but could become challenging to the school staff in certain circumstances? I don't agree that DS is being manipulative (I have seen typical manipulative teenage behaviour in DS1) nor do I go out of my way to defend DS if his behaviour has been unacceptable. He is not perfectly behaved at home either but it is more about him not doing what I have asked and avoidance as opposed to threatening or aggressive behaviour. I have always supported school in punishments and DS usually accepts these when he recognises he has done something wrong. This has left me with alot of guilt because now in light of his diagnosis, I can see how on some of these occasions he has been misunderstood and I have refused to believe his version which has often turned out to be a true account of what happened. It is not in my sons interests to challenge school for every issue and I know he is not perfectly behaved nor is everything he has done explained by ASD, however his intentions are important to consider and on this occasion neither of us are clear what happened exactly. I know he did not mean to be intimidating even if it was perceived this way and I think the school should have spent more time explaining to him exactly what he did wrong so that he can learn from this and provided me with a better explanation. He is genuinely perplexed as to why this has happened and may have come across as aggressive when he was trying to put his side across. He does become quite animated when he is passionate about something and truth telling is one of those things he is very concerned about. His accent is very monotone and sometimes American but he shows flat effect and can come across as serious when he is actually trying to joke.

DS identifies as ASD as that's what his official diagnosis is.

[LastMichaelmas]

ALERT: that was a joke. I shall emotion it to you in excruciating detail, since you appear to like that.

It's funny because
a) it assumes you were commenting on the speed of thought of autistics generally, when you likely only intended to refer to social processing
b) it gently inverts the assumption of superiority of the typical over the atypical
c) I can't possibly know how quickly you think
d) it's slightly socially unacceptable, and this contradicts my post about how autism doesn't necessarily stop you thinking of others' perspectives

[LastMichaelmas]

Emotion? 😂 Explain.

[AmaryllisNightAndDay]

the underlying understanding is that he is aware it is antagonistic because that teacher doesn't go to his house to make him breakfast on a regular basis.

That's only your "understanding". There are lots of different ways to "understand" what he said and no particular reason to prefer yours. Why should he be aware it is "antagonistic" to talk about something that has never happened? That's a very convoluted bit of reasoning on your part.

[MargeSimpsonswig]

Thankyou for highlighting this point @Last, DS does have a sense of humour and can even be sarcastic (yes, some people with ASD understand sarcasm).

I find the problem with some 'experts' is that they read a list of criteria for ASD but don't understand the emotions behind it. A perfect example is ASD children are described as preferring to spend time alone when in actual fact DS is desperate to be socially accepted, but after years of rejection, ridicule and bullying from his peers, he has chosen to spend most of his time alone, where he feels safe.

[Frenchw1fe]

@Dontdisturbmenow
Well if your friend said so it must be true 🤔
Teachers are like any other group of workers, some are excellent, some, most, are good and unfortunately some are just not suited to their job.
I doubt if there’s one person on MN who didn’t have a teacher who was really unsuited to their chosen profession.
I can think of two, one of whom was a nasty bully.
In an underfunded, over stretched school environment it’s far easier to pass the problem back to the child and parent than find time to work out what’s really going on. Unfortunately this means the child will suffer for the sake of all the others who don’t need the extra effort.
The OP has to fight for her child and this is seen as being in denial of her child’s behaviour and yet everything the OP has written demonstrates that she is fully aware of her son’s behaviour but for some reason the school will not explain their version of events . This, imo, would definitely point to the child being the truthful one here.

[LastMichaelmas]

DS does have a sense of humour and can even be sarcastic (yes, some people with ASD understand sarcasm)

That can't possibly be true. After all, we have no sense of the counterfactual, see things entirely in black and white so would have no appreciation of the nuance, and lack the social understanding to see the humour of saying one thing while communicating another. It's just too sophisticated for us.

[WheresMyChocolate]

As an autistic adult I can totally do sarcasm, but i'm never quite sure if someone is being sarcastic back.

[Glitterfisher]

The lack of knowledge and understanding of ASD on this thread is unreal. You do realise it's a spectrum right?!!!

DS2 (11) has ASD and has a pretty good sense of humour when it comes to making jokes, he would be likely to say something of a similar vein to the OPs DS but he wouldn't necessarily understand all jokes that are said to him all the time. He is learning though, parrot fashion I guess. He is quite a sociable boy but doesn't always find it easy. School don't always get him, he has ADHD also and one teacher emailed to tell me he had been told off for 'choosing not to concentrate' during an important part of the lesson so they sent him out. He wasn't being disruptive it turns out, he just hadn't listened well enough and couldn't answer the question properly, he was in Y5 so only about 10.

I have also had a school do something similar with my DS1, he is NT and a really well behaved boy. Basically he was told off for banter and what he was accused of was supposedly awful but the teacher refused to say what it actually was but he was threatened with punishments if it didn't stop, he had no idea what he was supposed to have done so said if he didn't know he couldn't correct his behaviour. They continued saying this to him and he was so upset in the end I contacted them, they eventually admitted there wasn't actually a specific incident but they didn't like the fact that him and his 4 best friends who were the cool kids (their words not mine) were so close and that it wasn't fair on the others as they should socialise with everyone.

It was a load of rubbish as they did, they often invited loads of the other boys round etc, they did apologise to him in the end and said they were trying to make a point to the whole class to encourage them to be kinder to each other and he hadnt actually done anything.

So basically what I am saying is that I totally see where the OP is coming from, schools cannot always be defended regardless.

[Glitterfisher]

I have never even heard of ASC being used. ASD is perfectly fine surely.

[noblegiraffe]

I’ve heard ASC being used by the same sort of people who insist on ‘person with autism’ instead of ‘autistic person’, and they tend not to be autistic themselves.

[LittleSweet]

Ring the advisory service for the Equality Act. They will help you write a formal letter of complaint quoting the Equality Act if you feel the school are punishing behaviour due to your son's autism. Autism is a protected characteristic and if they are punishing behaviour that is due to his autism that is discrimination. Also he doesn't need a formal diagnosis or an EHCP to be protected by the Equality Act. The school could be breaking the law. When I went through this process I also went through the school's policies, which should be available online to identify where they weren't following their own policies. The people at the advisory service are friendly and very helpful.

[LittleSweet]

Glitterfisher, an an autistic person I prefer asc as the c means condition. A condition is a state of being. This is more what autism is like. Disorder, the d in asd, doesn't match what it's like being autistic. I need order not disorder, as many autistic people do. I actually feel strongly about it.

[doritosdip]

I believe that your son thinks that he hadn't been rude or threatening to the teacher.

However I don't think it follows that the school is necessarily lying.

I think it's shocking that they haven't told you exactly what this threatening behaviour consists of. My children are NT but I would still want to know details. They say that there's 3 versions of what happened- the 2 people's accounts and the truth.

Your son is not unreasonable to think that he shouldn't be punished without knowing why. My kids are NT and I think they'd be reasonable to not want to go back to a place that didn't make it clear what a punishment was for. It might have been non-verbal stuff that made the teacher feel threatened or his tone but he deserves an explanation of what was wrong so that he doesn't repeat that behaviour in future.

I would turn up at school tomorrow morning and wait in reception until the Head was available to sort this out. It's been 2 weeks which is far too long

[arethereanyusernamesleftatall]

LastMichaelmas I see what you did there

My DS, who's on the spectrum, very much likes playing with sarcasm. He doesn't always get the balance right between funny and rude! He certainly understands it though.

[JanMeyer]

Disorder, the d in asd, doesn't match what it's like being autistic. I need order not disorder, as many autistic people do.

Yeah but the disorder in ASD refers to the disordered development that literally is autism, I mean that's what makes us autistic and NTs, well typical. It's because of that "disordered development" that makes you need order after all. For me autism does equal disorder - in the sense I haven't learnt certain skills that a person of my age would typically have, hence disorder being quite a perfect word for it really.
As Mjlp said upthread, condition makes it sound milder and less disabling than it really is.

I’ve heard ASC being used by the same sort of people who insist on ‘person with autism’ instead of ‘autistic person’, and they tend not to be autistic themselves.

Yep, I've usually found that to be the case as well. There's little more annoying than a person who isn't autistic lecturing an autistic person about how to refer to their autism.
I was once lectured at length by a psychologist about how as a person with Aspergers I shouldn't call myself autistic because only people with "real severe autism" like his son are autistic and are disabled by it. And to make it worse the idiot is involved with setting up the autism team in my area for autistic adults who don't have a learning disability. There is definitely a lot of ignorance out there, both in terms of medical professionals and special needs staff in the education system.
I've long since learnt that a person having "20 years of experience" or being a so called expert is far from a guarantee they actually know or understand anything about the autistic spectrum.

[LastMichaelmas]

"20 years of experience" means they trained 20 years ago (if they trained at all), when the state of understanding of autism was very different. People are often unwilling to change their minds even if they try to keep up to date.

[LittleDragonGirl]

I’ve heard ASC being used by the same sort of people who insist on ‘person with autism’ instead of ‘autistic person’, and they tend not to be autistic themselves.

Yep, I've usually found that to be the case as well. There's little more annoying than a person who isn't autistic lecturing an autistic person about how to refer to their autism.

As a adult with autism (and ADHD) I personally much prefer ASD, as it is fundimentally a disorder of development and if you want to be really technical it is a neuroDEVELOPMENTAL disorder, same as ADHD. I personally find using condition makes it sound treatable or like its something that develops over time, which is not the case.
I also don't understand the whole person with autism thing, because I am a autistic adult, without my autism I would be a fundamentally different person, I don't suffer or experience autism, autism is a fundalmental part and also makes me who i am.

[WheresMyChocolate]

I prefer just autistic or autism not ASD or ASC as that's what I was diagnosed with. As an autistic person I can't be doing with imposed changes so will stick rigidly to what I'm familiar with, even if the entire world disagree.