Help needed with my English, sorry!

[bluebellforest]

Hi,
Posted her for traffic, sorry.

English language is definitely not my strong point. So I am asking for some help please.

I am wanting to make some Christmas signs for my family, but I am not sure whether I need apostrophes or not 😣

So, the sign will be:
Christmas at the McSweeny's
Is that apostropy right?

Also:
Christmas at the James's
Would it be James's or James's

Argh, please help!
Thank you!

As the McSweeny family is a single body (a family) you don't need to treat it as a plural so you were correct to place it after the y.

The other exception to the plural rule is when the word ITSELF SHOWS it's plural like "children's" and the exception to THAT is when the word shows it's plural like "Ladies' entrance this way" (or Cheltenham Ladies' College) BUT there is nowhere to put the the apostrophe as you can't have Ladie's... it is complicated but fun! Some people have fun with maths some have fun with language! The main thing is communication and you're doing that perfectly well so be more confident.

No. Seriously. Now I remember why I don't post on threads like this! I know you mean well, honestly, but it's incorrect to write Christmas at the McSweeny's. Whether anyone you know will care or not is another matter entirely and I'm sure friends won't judge or maybe even notice either way, but please stop posting incorrect information if you don't actually know the answer. It's either Christmas at the McSweenys' or Christmas with the McSweenys.

The discussion about James'/James's is only relevant if you are discussing an individual called James. The plural of James, as in a family of people who share the last name James, is Jameses, and the correct way of styling this would be Christmas at the Jameses'. As has already been said several times on this thread.

The discussion about James'/James's is only relevant if you are discussing an individual called James.

D'oh! I thought that's what was being discussed.

Anyway, if you're a grammarian, we should of been talking about alot abit.

McSweenys'

and

James'

I think

@bluebellforest
I actually misread and thought it was a person James (rather than a family)

@bluebellforest ignore my point about James it's wrong as I misread.

It's one of those apostrophes that confuses many native English speakers!

www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/what-happens-to-names-when-we-make-them-plural-or-possessive

brians.wsu.edu/2016/05/17/apostrophes/

'The practice of putting improper apostrophes in family names on signs in front yards is an endless source of confusion. “The Brown’s” is just plain wrong. (If you wanted to suggest “the residence of the Browns” you would have to write “The Browns’,” with the apostrophe after the S, which is there to indicate a plural number, not as an indication of possession.) If you simply want to indicate that a family named Brown lives here, the sign out front should read simply “The Browns.” When a name ends in an S you need to add an ES to make it plural: “The Adamses.”'

I've been teaching apostrophes for omission (contractions) and possession this week. Generally, the apostrophe comes before the s for singular nouns and after the s for plurals.

But it gets confusing if a singular word ends in s or if a plural is formed in a non-standard way. So a more consistent rule to follow is:

1. Find the owner
2. Add the apostrophe
3. Add an s if there isn't one.

First think of how you would express ownership in a more long-winded way.
eg: The ball of the girl
Owner is girl (singular), add apostrophe so it becomes girl', no s so add one and we have the girl's ball.

eg 2: The ball of the girls
Owner is girls (plural), add apostrophe so it becomes girls', there's already an s so we don't need to add an extra one and we have the girls' ball

eg 3: The ball of the children
Owner is the children, add apostrophe so it becomes children', there's no s so we add one and get the children's ball

When a name or singular noun ends in double ss, still add an s after the apostrophe eg the princess's party or the boss's office

When a name or singular noun ends in a single s, you don't have to add an extra one after the apostrophe. It's stylistic preference and the only rule is to be consistent so James's party (one person called James) or James' party are both correct.
If in doubt go by pronounciation and if you say it as if there's an extra s then add one when you write it.

*So a more consistent rule to follow is:

1. Find the owner
2. Add the apostrophe
3. Add an s if there isn't one.*

^ This.

Thus: Christmas at the McSweenys' and Christmas at the Jameses'.

You could maybe argue about the plural of James, but how would you refer out loud to 2 people called James? You'd say 'Jameses'. How do you make that possessive? Add an apostrophe.

I used to be an English teacher, now I'm an editor.
@Celebelly is correct. Lots of other people are confusing matters by making the mistake of thinking it is one person called James and not a family of Jameses.

However, even the Apostrophe Protection Society has admitted it was fighting s losing battle and given up this week: www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/shortcuts/2019/dec/02/the-pedants-pedant-why-the-apostrophe-protection-society-has-closed-in-disgust

So I wouldn't worry too much!

a losing battle, of course!

Oh thank you so much everyone!
My goodness, English is so complicated isn't it!
I can get on with my crafting now 😊

The complication comes because English makes most plurals the way French does (by adding s) but signifies possession the way German does (by adding s!). French indicates possession using de (of) and German makes plurals by adding or changing various letters. Only English inherited the double whammy of using s for both purposes. Only English needs to use something - we picked the apostrophe - to distinguish possessive s from plural s. That is where our problems began!

My trick is to turn the phrase around and say it how the French would: (the house of the McSweenys) and put the apostrophe after the final letter. If the phrase won't turn round and take 'of' in the middle and make sense, it's probably just a plural and they don't need apostrophes.

Don't get me started on apostrophes for contraction! As if things weren't difficult enough already. We could've and should've chosen different punctuation marks so we wouldn't get confused, but we didn't do what we could've done. 😉

You only need to learn this properly once, but it is difficult, it's poorly understood and it's too often poorly taught or not taught at all.