Who was in the wrong here? Dog attack

[BlanketTime]

I was walking my Jack Russel earlier along a path which runs alongside a field. My dog off lead so he could run around the field. In the distance, two big dogs playing together off lead (so I assumed them friendly as they were off lead). My dog ran over to the smaller of the two (later realised they were Doberman’s, the smaller one was female). They were nose touching and tail wagging so I assumed all was fine. Then bigger of the two (male) ran over and joined in the sniffing. A bit of play started, all tails wagging then I noticed my dog looked worried and was trying to get away. The big dogs were chasing him. I called him back to me and the big dogs followed. Two owners shouting of their dogs with absolutely no recall (the smaller female went back to owner momentarily but darted off again before she could grab her. Ended with my dog cowered near me and male dog growling and biting at him. Female also started to join in. I shouted at the owners to control their dogs. The female eventually buggered off back to owner and finally the male buggered off too. Owners said the incident was my fault as I let my dog approach theirs. I say it was their fault as, if they had no recall they shouldn’t have been off lead!! They then argued that their dogs were only playing as my dog would have been injured otherwise. My dog certainly did not enjoy the “game”.

AIBU to think this was 100% on them?

Nope, your dog shouldn't have approached them. My dogs are not interested in other dogs and wouldn't have come anywhere near yours. They are happy playing together and don't want interlopers, sorry!

Definately both at fault here.

never assume anything positive about dogs you don't know.

Unfortunately I've met a huge number of sometimes rude but often downright aggressive dogs and their idiot 'he's only playing' owners...

Your dog should not be racing off at great distance to see other dogs.
He ran so far ahead you didn't even know the breed at first, that is ridiculously and dangerously far away because firstly such behaviour is immensely rude and threatening, you will never see dogs with good social skills race like a bloody loon to see other dogs miles away and secondly, being a very small dog, a big and highly prey driven dog could potentially mistake him for prey with disastrous consequences.

The Dobermanns should have recalled. Definately.

Your dog was not 'attacked'.

Either the Dobermann has been a bit of a bully and was deliberately intimidating him or the Dobermann was trying to play (roughly) which frightened your dog.

Believe me, if a Dobermann had attacked your dog for real, as in bit and made contact, you would not have a jack Russell left.
If not killed outright he would have been left with very noticeable and serious injury.
They are so fast aswell, don't kid yourself that it was your intervention that saved him.
If the Dobermanns intention was to injure him, he would be injured.

As for what if it was a child
There is NO correlation between dog on dog aggression and human aggression.
Absolutely none.

No but ops dog could have gone to a scared child- been frightened and nipped for example.

As much as people think they know their dog fully and trust them, it’s a mistake.

I read the article a third of the attacks are on postal workers/ delivery men. ( my dog hates the post man, and would have his fingers, he’s invading her space, she’s just doing her job, I have a cage, as I quite like our post man, plus I’m a responsible owner)
Add in labs are a very popular breed..... statistics.

I wouldn’t say they are attacking people, not that it matters🙄 go back read my post, recall your dog, until you are close enough to asses the situation or check with the owner.

You are all at fault. Dogs are supposed ro be under control. Why on earth would you let your dog approach two strange dogs?

Why on earth would you let your dog approach two strange dogs?

I would imagine because there is a horrible deep seated belief amongst most people that dogs just love to socialise with other dogs and we should constantly foist them into the presence of other dogs constantly as puppies to 'socialise' them and always let them 'say hello' to others on leash.

My girl is totally fine with dogs 'around' but can't cope with most dogs attempting a greeting and will get aggressive.

Dogs that race from considerable distance like OPs dog are a nightmare for me, I have to recall my dog then the fun really begins because 9 times out of 10 they will not return to their owner and I can't stop walking with my dog at heel else she will go for them..

not injured, just shaken up

Ah!

With respect, then - it wasn't an attack, though it could have turned into one.

Had a dog as large and powerful as a dobermann intended to hurt your dog - believe me, it would have succeeded.

It sounds like it was a "play" activity (on the dobie's part, anyway), but it could very easily have got out of hand - if for instance, your dog had squealed it could have set off the other's prey drive and there could have been tragedy. It doesn't sound as though this other dog was aggressive - just over-enthusiastic.

But I still think that a dog with poor recall shouldn't be off lead - or should be put back on lead when any distraction appears.

As for what if it was a child
There is NO correlation between dog on dog aggression and human aggression.
Absolutely none

Agree- it always pisse me off so much when people say "What if it was a child?" As Violets says - different situation altogether..

You should immediately recall if you have a small dog and there are unknown large dogs off leash. It's not worth the risk.

This. And you don't let your dog approach other dogs until you have at least checked the situation with the other owner/s.

It's just common sense.

Well it isn’t @SchadenfreudePersonified because OP clearly over trusts her dog and it could be her dog attacking a child since she lets it go so far away from her.

Even the most relaxed of dogs can snap when in an unfamiliar environment and if feeling threatened.

However, they were at fault too. You both were.

OP clearly over trusts her dog

This, a million times over. It's so common with dog owners and it's a problem. My dog is an angel, he's such a good lad - do I trust him 100 % in any situation? Of course not, he's a dog ergo he might do something completely out of character.

There's a woman in the same village as me who brags frequently on FB that her dog walks perfectly to heel, she doesn't need to use a lead and she always has him under control.

That is until a couple of weeks ago when he saw something (no idea what) on the other side of the road outside the school and bolted across, causing two cars to swerve and hit each other - thank god it wasn't a child - it was school pick up time, closely followed by his owner (who was wearing a baby in a sling). She absolutely could not understand it as 'he's never done it before and he's seven'. The stupidity of some dog owners baffles me. I've had dogs for a very long time, they've all been well trained, but to over trust any dog is a huge mistake.

Gosh that’s awful @SpiderCharlotte.

I actually think people shouldn’t have animals- especially dogs if they can’t understand that you cannot trust them at all 100%. OP letting her dog go so far unattended and then towards other dogs is insane.

Even more insane is that she has asked who is at fault, such bad ownership.

If your jrt was attacked by two Doberman’s aggressively he would be injured.

Sounds like rough/bullying play. Mine play like this all of the time together, lots of chasing, nipping and biting. I wouldn’t allow them to play with others for the reasons stated in the OP.

If your dog doesn't like play like this then put him on a lead then if the other dogs do bother yours you have the moral high ground.

‘ I shouted at the owners to control their dogs ‘

It’s this bit that annoys me the most I think.
It’s no good controlling a dog when a situation has already got out of hand from owners not doing that already.

OP I saw a post on Facebook recently- a local page of a girl trying to find the owner of a dog that had that morning mauled hers to death whilst on a walk.

A Doberman is massive compared to a Jack Russel and you were insane to assume it was friendly because it wasn’t on a lead.

Instead of being annoyed your dog got nipped at, you should be thankful your dog is still with you, could’ve easily not been.

You should be desperate to get some help to make yourself a more responsible pet owner in the future.

@Jellybeansincognito it makes me mad. Dogs are always blamed for their owners' idiocy!

It wouldn't be quite so bad if she wasn't still marching around with her (very lovely) dog off lead. It's as if she's trying to prove a point rather than just put her bloody dog on a lead. She's been told by several people (on the village FB page, imagine the drama!) that if they see her again with her dog off lead on the pavements, walking past school etc, they'll report her for not having him under control. Which she, of course, insists she does ...

That’s absolutely terrible, some people shouldn’t have pets @SpiderCharlotte

Both you and they were at fault. You need to recall your dog if it starts approaching others.

He was growling and biting him. My dog was terrified. That is an attack.

No, it's not. An attack by two Dobermans would have left you with either a dead or a seriously injured Jack Russell.

My beagle is incredibly mouthy in play with other dogs - his best friend ever is a similarly aged husky and the noises they make are just ridiculous - but all it is is play. They growl, mouth, bite, hang off each other - and both constantly go back for more. Neither of them has ever shown one ounce of aggression towards the other -- it's just rough play - it's what some young dogs like to do.

Your dog went up to two bigger dogs and tried to join in their fun - you clearly thought that was acceptable as you didn't recall him. You only objected when the play got "too rough" and your dog didn't like it. If you don't know whether your dog will get on with another, recall it and put it on a lead!

From what you describe there was no aggression there. Growling, snapping and mouthing are all signs of play amongst dogs. If your dog can't cope with that (which is fine) then it's your job as the owner to prevent situations like that occurring in the future.

The attack was your dog running up to two other dogs and being allowed to intrude on their fun.
My dog is mainly off lead, has good recall, has never been aggressive towards humans but hates little dogs with vehemence. He ignores other dogs unless provoked by some yapping thing rushing up to him. He tolerates briefly then makes sure they know their presence is not appreciated. He’s a big dog with a very large bark.
I don’t understand how other owners get upset that he’s barked and chased their precious dog when they’ve failed to stop their little but aggressive dog intimidating my generally gentle giant. He runs faster. He squashes them.They squeal. Owner gets huffy.

The answer is not to assume it’s the biggest dogs who are the most aggressive but to avoid your rude dog running up for an uninvited pester.

I've just uploaded this that was taken just today, but this is my two big dogs having a play fight. They look like they're having an actual fight, but honestly would rip each other apart if they wanted to. Those Dobermans didn't attack your dog. You're just as responsible for controlling your own dog as they are for theirs

hope that your dog is OK @BlanketTime - extra cuddles needed!

That's the risk you take if you let your small dog run up to 2 large dogs that are together. Pack mentality. 🤷‍♀️
Yes they should be able to recall their dogs but when instinct kicks in, sometimes it's hard to get them back.

You should never let your dog run up to others unless you ask if they are ok? Not only that, it's really annoying as the bigger dog will always get the blame. Imagine if a doberman ran over to your jr, but yours got fed up with him and had a go at the doberman, then the doberman retaliated? The bigger dog will always get the bad name , because it will come off the better.
I get it all the time when I am out with my, larger dogs, luckily mine wont react, but one hates them being in her face and looks to me to get rid of them. 'Oh, they only want to play' is the usual cry.'....no, piss right off and leave us alone!
Saying that, I really hope your dog is ok.

Fault on both sides but it was your dog who started the chain of events so on balance I'd say you were more at fault. I would say the opposite if the other dogs had been allowed to approach yours, out of interest why didn't you call your dog back when it headed for the bigger dogs? You said you assumed they were friendly, does that mean you usually allow your dog to approach others off lead? Because if so you are the bane of my life!