To keep quiet about my friend's spending habits?

[AlexaShutUp]

Friend has gone through a very messy divorce. There was violence and emotional abuse. She is very fragile, and in need of a lot of support. I have been trying to help in whatever way I can, mainly by listening and letting her offload, and by offering practical support with her four children. She has a lot on her plate, and I really want to help.

She has confided in me that she is very worried about her financial situation, and she is increasingly getting into debt. She said that she lies awake at night worrying about this. I don't know the extent of her debt, but think it's mainly on credit cards and a couple of unpaid legal bills. From what she has said, I don't think the amounts are insignificant.

I'm concerned that she is burying her head in the sand about this, and have urged her to seek professional advice from CAB, a debt charity or similar. However, so far, I have chosen not to point out that her spending habits are not helping the situation, because I think she will just push me away if she feels that I'm judging in any way, and she needs all the help she can get.

However, the reality is that she is spending too much, and this is getting her further into debt - e.g. taxis where they're really not needed, buying spares of stuff that will never be used, frequent takeaways and meals out, extravagant gifts at Christmas etc. Of course, I appreciate that these things are probably helping to take a little bit of the pressure off, but then she says that she is stressed about money, so the pressure is just piled back on again. I am aware that someone else tried to broach this with her by suggesting that she could cut back on some stuff, but she got really annoyed with him and told me that he just didn't understand how hard things are for her. She also said that she didn't feel that there was anything that she could realistically cut back on.

One part of me feels that I should just tell her that there are plenty of things that she could cut back on, and I'd be more than happy to help her work through these. However, I don't think she wants to hear it, and I'm concerned that she would interpret it as a criticism. FWIW, I'm honestly not judging - I'm quite extravagant myself and certainly don't have the right to lecture anyone on thriftiness; however, if my financial circumstances were to change, I do know where I'd cut back.

Her ex is still paying the mortgage on the family home, and surprisingly, pays a good amount of maintenance, but as he was a very high earner, she is obviously having to adjust to a somewhat reduced standard of living, and of course, she doesn't want the children to lose out. However, getting herself deeper and deeper into debt really isn't going to help.

I genuinely want to do the right thing here, but can't quite decide what's best. Should I try to talk to her about her spending, or is it better to keep quiet as I have done to date? I did offer to go to CAB with her, but she didn't seem very keen on that idea. I don't know if she will go on her own.

Did her ex control her financially? Could it be she is kicking over the traces a bit?

I agree with others that there is a big psychological component in this.

I can also see how overspending can be a bit like overeating - you know you're doing it but can't quite bring yourself to stop. (Am a bit of a comfort eater myself, so that comparison makes sense to me - and I certainly wouldn't welcome anyone pointing out the error of my ways!)

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. And there's a similar amount of thrill, shame and moral failure associated with reckless spending. The difference is you can track it on paper, which you're very kind to offer to help her with. I'd differ from others suggesting you wait until she brings it up again-probably when she does this she's just looking for reassurance and isn't ready to re-think. Pick a calm moment and start from the top:

"I've noticed you're worried about money, because you've mentioned it a few times. When I feel like my eating is getting out of control, it really helps me to sit down and think about what I want to change. Would you like me to help you do the same with your budget? There's an online tool which could help"

It can also be guilt. When I separated from my kids' dad I was very very aware that they were 'losing' something, and I tried to make it up to them by 'buying back' part of what they were missing, if you see what I mean.

So I'd spend money I couldn't afford on activities and days out and toys to try to fill the gap that I perceived there to be where their father wasn't. There may have been an element of trying to buy their affection a little too.

It sorted itself out for me when I got more used to being a single mum and got a bit more stable, but I was worried sick about money for a while. Might some of this apply to your friend?

Yes I think she knows where she's going wrong and the best thing to offer her might be to sit down and work through her income and outgoings and suggest where she can make some cut backs. She might say no to the offer or say yes but not listen to your suggestions. You sound like a lovely friend.

All you can do is to say you know some places/resources which might help, next time she mentions money difficulties, and ask if she's interested in knowing about them.

Do your homework. Look at the MSE website budget calculator. Look online for your local debt advice organisation (these are amazing - free, non-judgemental and brilliant at helping people through debt and budgeting in a way which relieves them of that crushing sense of burden and helps them move forward, in a way it's hard to do alone). Get some leaflets. Be clear you'd be happy to sit with her and look at websites or go to a meeting with her if she would like.

Often, it's good to just drop the idea in briefly first time and not go into lots of detail or push for a 'yes' response. People need to think about accessing help and it can take a little while to be brave enough to say 'yes' - so just start by saying you know some resources or places which can help and ask her to just think about if they might be helpful.

And then, quite likely the issue of money difficulties will come up again soon after. Often people wants to be asked again. Always just ask if they would like to know about help.....don't state that they need it or must take the offer. People have to choose for themselves.

Friends should care about each other and should be willing to have he tricky conversation which might not go down well sometimes. It's about doing it with love and letting that person then choose for themselves. Know though it's not easy for lots of people to accept help from a friend or from an outside organisation, and you might need to offer several times and be pretty resilient yourself.

Huge psych component here.

Is she having support from Women’s Aid or similar? Is she on any meds? Having any therapy?

Abusive relationships are extremely difficult to recover from, especially when you’re forced to keep in touch with your abuser.

I think you are trying to be a terrific friend. She won't listen to you, but she may listen to an independent third party. In some areas, debt advisors come to your home to do an assessment on incomings/ outgoings. You have to be careful to pick someone who is independent and coming from a charity, as there are lots of sharks out there looking to get clients into more debt (brokers pretending to 'help'). Perhaps you could look into what is available locally.

Your friend might want to look at counselling via the NHS. The wait list is usually quite long but it can be helpful to apply psychological techniques to a spending addiction. Again, it might take an independent professional to switch the light on for your friend.

I can totally understand how it's happened during a period of immense emotional turmoil in her life; the spending feels like a quick sticking plaster over the wounds. Problem is, it's short lived and spirals into a deeper deeper problem as the spending fails to deliver the emotional comfort that she's seeking. I think it's very good that she's told you already that it's causing her sleepless nights ....that can't carry on, she'll need to keep her wits about her for this divorce.

I'd start small OP. Don't freak her out. Maybe start with offering a causal coffee and a spend plan just for the next 7 days. Figure out what her essential costs are going to be and a sum to cover just that amount....maybe suggest a mid week check point and a modest end of week takeaway or something if she hits the targets. Suggest she cuts up her credit cards today.
You're a great friend and I'm sure she'll really value your kindness and support!

I've seen people do this behaviour, literally buy the stuff and then not even open up the bag and unpack or use said item. It's about the emotional gratification of making the purchase. The actual item isn't really needed at all, it's just fodder for a hurt soul. ☹️

Well the problem is not going to be that she can't do a budget though is it. Doing a budget itself is not a complicated or difficult thing. It's basic maths. You are not going to have greater knowledge than her.

I think you suggesting that you go through her budget and tell her what to spend is a MASSIVE boundary cross and very patronising.

And also totally missing the point. She has a different psychological approach to money than you do - and she's in a difficult place.

You do not have the skills and it is not your place to "fix that" - if you want to be a good friend offer emotional support. That is where the boundary of good friendship should end until a friend asks specifically for help in going through their detailed personal finances.

Offering to help her do a budget is a good idea. Any thoughts on how I could suggest this without it coming across as patronising?

"I was researching managing debt and it suggested that getting an outsider to go through a budget can really help. I think it's because you can get an outsiders opinion. I think CAB can help with this, but I am very happy to help. I know it might seem a bit personal, but I can promise you will get zero judgement from me and I would never discuss it with anyone else."

it's just fodder for a hurt soul.

Very well put.

Overspending is a form of addiction, she has the temporary hit of buying something, but later she will have the realisation of the mounting debt.

She is covering up her emotions with spending. She will need a lot of support, but she may not be ready to admit to what is happening, you need to keep supporting her whilst she is going through such turbulent times.

Perhaps if she had help to deal with the abuse that occurred, this would put her in a better place and enable her to deal with the money worries.

It might be that Womens Aid could steer her towards low-cost or free counselling.

Thank you, she already has very good support in place to deal with the aftermath of the abuse, including counselling, thanks to a brilliant local charity. I don't think her ex financially abused her - she has always spent quite a lot, but she was previously able to afford it. I don't think it's a shopping addiction as such - more about buying convenience to help her get through the day, which is obviously understandable. I also think the poster who mentioned that she might be overcompensating for the kids due to feelings of guilt is probably onto something. They've all had a shit time.

Thank you for your perspective, FFS. I completely take your point that it isn't my place to "fix" her spending habits and I don't necessarily have the right skills to do so anyway. I am happy to stop at emotional support if that's the right thing to do, but somehow it feels very dishonest to nod sympathetically when she says that there's nothing she can cut back on when it's very obvious that there are some potentiality easy wins. I guess that's why I started the thread really, to explore where the boundaries lie. Should a friend be willing to have an honest conversation if they think it is in the best interests of the other person? Or would that be overstepping the line and should they wait to be asked for help? It's a tough one, and I'm still not sure I know the answer.

I think I will wait for her to raise the subject again, and then try to explore very tentatively whether there is anything that I can do to help.

Thanks all.

There’s a personal finance channel o YouTube I listen too, it’s called the Dave Ramsey show. He is no nonsense and it’s really easy to follow. Maybe drop that in if she not keen on cab, sometimes we just need someone to crack to door open slightly so we can see the light behind it.
It’s not your responsibility to arrange her finances, my advice would be to not go into it with her, she needs to figure it out in the long run any case

I think our best friends are the people who will sometimes tell us the stuff we don't want to hear.

If the money is there to spend on comforting takeaways and taxis and luxurious gifts to make life feel more cheerful than fine. But it obvously isn't.

If a high-earning husband is paying adequate maintenance then it sounds as though the children are being clothed, fed and have a roof over their head.

If the children are very small they will probably more concerned with emotional stability - knowing their mother is there for them. If they are older, then they're old enough to know that divorce leaves people worse off and there will be fewer luxuries even if they still have what they need.

These are not easy conversations to have. But I'd like to think that if I really cared about a friend I would try to say what I felt they most needed to hear - even if part of them was in was in avoidance mode.

Honestly, I wouldn’t do anything. It’s so so’s easy to make budgets or sit back in judgements- we could all do it, her too I imagine- but she’s had a terribly traumatic time and I imagine this would just be hoo much at the moment. It’s presumably not the financial advice that’s lacking but the fact that she’s giving into temptation, spending money to save effort/ treating herself etc. Seems perfectly normal having come out of an abusive relationship. It’s not great but she’s an adult and will work it out for herself