Lord Peter Wimsey - linguistic question

[Flyingfish2019]

A linguistic question I (as a non native speaker of English) had reading Lord Peter Wimsey novels. There is sometimes unusual grammar like.

“To myself says I“ or “I see him. Mr. if forgot his name) that is“ or use of ain’t all the time.

To me it seems like “I said to myself“, “I see him. That is Mr...“ would be more correct English. Are the characters meant to speak odd or is it oldfashioned English or is it just me not knowing enough about the english language?

Yes they are meant to speak odd. I think it is meant to represent a certain era though (not sure how accurately)

He is a rather pompous (although kind natured) character - you have to see it on stage for the full effect. I’m sure you have similar characters in your own language.

Ain’t is a colloquialism, used to convey class and location (eg probably London, definitely working class) .I am not quite sure what you mean by the other section, could you write the whole sentence?

I think it's partly the time they were written in, reflecting slightly old fashioned speech patterns which seem fussy to us today, and partly Dorothy L. Sayers trying to (sometimes clumsily) use those speech patterns and word usage to depict characterisation. The speech of the Scottish characters in Five Red Herrings is particularly exaggerated and almost embarrassing to read!

Ain't in Lord Peter Wimsey isn't "common" eg. London and working class - it is a certain kind of posh (of the period). To see similar try reading the Jeeves books by P G Wodehouse.
Dorothy L Sayer was trying to get down on paper some of the "posh" way of speaking of the 1920s ish.

I love the story that she told - that when she was a particularly impoverished scholar she would walk through Oxford on a cold wet day, and conjure up a scene of LPW riding along in a particularly fine car.

The books were written in the 1920s and 1930s, at a time when young (ish) people would use slang, some of it milllitary - from WW1 - to sound clever, witty or just to show off.

Lord Peter is upper class (probably upper middle class) with a university education and a service record so the form of speech uses is typical.
You'll see similar in Jeeves & Wooster stories.

"To myself says I" is really just an affectation, changing the usual order of speech for humorous effect, possibly partly intending to parody the lower classes (who may have said things like "so I said to him, I said, don't you come knocking on my door, I said").

Mr I forgot his name is also an attempt at humour/wit. Polite society of the time would require you to use a title to address someone outside your immediate friendship circle : Mr. Smith, Mrs Jones, Miss Dobbs, etc. Sunset can't recall the name of the person (or perhaps feels they are not memorable), so he tags that onto the polite title.

As for ain't - it has flipped between the classes. In older novels (poss even Jane Austen), it is amn't - which is an abbreviated form of "am not". Over time this corrupted into ain't.

@SirVixofvixhall No, he is not working class. He is actually extremely well of and a Lord.

I do not have the book in front of me but it was something like. Lord Peter Wimsey says “To myself says I this is the proudest moment of my life. I can lean back in my chair and tell you all how wrong you are“.

The other one was about them shadowing a building and Peter Wimsey is somehow asked if he sees he persons and says “I see him. Mr. ... that is“.
It has been a while since I have been reading this but I always wondered about those words for they sounded so odd to me.

Lord Peter is vair vair posh. He speaks in an upper class idiom supposedly typical of his background at that time (1920's). The use of 'ain't' is a bit like wearing a flat cap then ie at either end of the social class scale.
Most of the plots are a bit dodgy but to me Ian Carmichael was Lord Peter (TV and radio) and the speech makes more sense when it's dramatised.

"Said I to myself, said I" is a quote from a Gilbert and Sullivan song

That‘s interesting @Riftgibbon what you say about military slang because there is another piece of art where I found “to myself said I“ and that’s Kiplings poem Tommy. The speaker is an English Tommy. „“I am out into the street again and to myself says I: It‘s Tommy this and Tommy that and Tommy go away“

It's obviously a common usage in Edwardian times.

The use by the ‘upper classes’ of ‘lower class slang’ was considered fashionable. Remember that bit in ‘My Fair Lady’ where Eliza is attending an ‘at home’ when she had learned the upper class accent but not the grammar, and shocks the other ladies by what she says (the ‘Not bloody likely, I’m taking a taxi’ scene)? One of the other people explain her shocking grammar as ‘The new slang.’

Do look for the TV series with Edward Petherbridge and Harriet Walter.
Perfection
I am a socialist but I still love DL Sayers and LPW and HV ❤️❤️❤️

I do think Samwise Gamgee sometimes says something along the lines “and I said to myself, said I“, doesn’t he? And hobbits were modeled after Edwardian Englishmen, weren’t they?

I'd definitely try and listen to the Ian Carmichael radio versions, (they turn up on iPlayer quite often, or you can get on Audible) I think the language seems much more realistic/less odd when heard rather than read.

Edward Petherbridge all the way.

Either way though, there are plenty of episodes on YouTube.

Ian Carmichael is completely wrong for LPW. He's too old and not got blonde hair. Edward Petherbridge and Harriet Walter are spot on. I live the books by JillPaton Walsh, more than the originals. Hope there will be a new one soon.

Haven’t heard the radio episodes yet but I definitely will.

Yes yes Edward Petherbridge! and Harriet Walter

They were wonderful!

Ian Carmichael is completely wrong for LPW. He's too old

I once read that Ian C. knew he was too old, but he'd been wanting to play Lord Peter for a long time, but hadn't been able to get the rights until then. He was the original Bertie Wooster, of course.

Like Petherbridge as Lord Peter, but didn't like Harriet W. as Harriet V., and didn't like some of the other casting either.

Leslie Howard would have been my choice to play Lord Peter, if only they'd filmed it back in the '30s.

Don't like the JPW continuations. Too many historical inaccuracies.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv6L3RKsq6Q The first episode of Strong Poison.

I think Ian Carmichael was a bit old for Bertie Wooster as well.

@Flyingfish2019

I have a Hungarian friend who speaks very good English - in fact, almost fluently, but she will sometimes ask me similar questions. She spent a lot of a time a few years ago translating episodes of Endeavour (Inspector Morse spin-off) and would ask me about slang and colloquial english.

I've recently read two Dorothy L Sayers' books in quick succession and enjoyed them possibly because I'd also enjoyed Jeeves & Wooster stories. I don't know that I'd like to see them dramatised!

flying fish that's not the quote at all. He says (I just checked it as I though it sounded wrong) "This is the proudest moment of my life... With my chest puffed out...I can lean back in my chair and say you are all wrong."

Don't know about the other quote tho, which book is that from?

And yes he and Freddy Arbuthnot do say "ain't" as does Gerald the Duke, I've always assumed it's sort of inverted posh - like really rich people who wear terrible clothes because they don't have to prove they are rich!

Love LPW so so much