To think if your business can’t afford to pay employees a living wage then it isn’t a viable business?

[tequilasunrises]

I see so many posts on here along the lines of ‘my/my DHs business couldn’t afford to pay people anymore’, usually defending NMW being so low.

I think that if your business isn’t making enough to be able to pay its employees a proper living wage (ie they don’t have to claim benefits on top or live in poverty) then it isn’t a viable business?

People having more money to spend can also only be a good thing for the economy and businesses surely?

AIBU?

I think the taxpayers shouldn’t be subsidising employers or absent parents.
Employers should be factoring in a living wage for employees as part of their business plan. It’s disgraceful that people working full time have the stigma of claiming benefits. If you’re not able to pay a living wage, it’s not a viable business. We shouldn’t be subsidising global corporations profits through our benefits system.
Parents should be supporting their children fully. If an absent father is earning, he should be required to provide properly for his children - more than a token amount that means they grow up in poverty and he mother struggles. Money should not be reduced if subsequently he has more children. A few more men might be more careful about contraception if they knew it was going to cost most of their wages.

These were hypothetical scenarios of a small business trying to expand with these changes looming.

I don’t think the government have taken the time to consider how harmful wage increases will be to small businesses in general and instead using “min wage increase” promises as a advertising campaign to obtain votes.

All MPs should be on minimum wage, we’ll see who wants to really make this country a “better” place.

@CherryPavlova did you really just pass the entirety of having children to men and contraception? that was funny.

It takes two to tango

It does indeed but there are far more children abandoned by feckless fathers who then have ‘a new family’ and reduce money for raising their first family. I’m sure there are some women who do likewise but suspect that’s a minuscule figure compared to the men not considering the costs of inconsequential sex.

The problem there is that for small businesses to compete and remain viable against large companies, they often genuinely can't afford to pay more because they're having to compete with bigger companies that have economy of scale.. If big companies could be arsed to pay any taxes instead of playing hunt the profit internationally it would be a start. Then they could pay their suppliers accurately and on time instead of using them as a free overdraft.

I briefly worked on a consultancy basis for a business with extremely skilled staff that were paid a pittance and nearly all made salaries up with tax credit. After I left dropped links to those I'd got on with about roles requiring those skills at a market rate.
One woman applied & got the job I forwarded, doubled her salary, although small commute rather than working on her doorstep. She is now established in the role, has had a further generous increment, and works very flexibly, often from home when it suits her.

Owner was a showy entitled git, who'd get uptight if someone was five minutes late, and worked on the basis that it was pointless to pay London Living Wage because staff could get tax credit top ups.

You don’t need to mention anything about your tax contributions to me, we pay more than our fair share to aid “others”, such as income tax, corporation tax and dividend taxes, it’s far more off putting when you’re an employer, we can’t even fart without getting taxed for it.

No, unless you are choosing to overpay, you are simply paying your fair share and not a penny more. Because what you get taxed on and at what rate is what, as a country, we have decided is fair.

I think there is a fairly logical place to set the minimum wage, and that is so that a full-time worker receiving it is at the poverty threshold.

So far as I can estimate, that is more or less where it is set, at the moment. So it's about right.

Ideally the wage should be fine-tuned, an employer in Hull shouldn't have to pay a wage that would keep someone out of poverty if they were living in London. I would like to see regional minimum wages each linked to a regional poverty line.

@CherryPavlova why should it be down to the father to have to support the child? I know first hand how it feels to be raised by my mother only but my mother did not sit and wait for my father to contribute, or complain about it either.

If you’re child needs support then I can only suggest that you get up and do what’s best for your child. We live in a time where equality between sexes are of upmost importance but apparently only when it suits certain situations/circumstances.

Sorry not a dig, well actually it is, you can’t blame a man for not using contraception when you could have done so yourself, people divorce/split up, that’s how things go as I said I know this first hand but that shouldn’t be an excuse to not do what you can do make up for it.

That’s my opinion.

Why would a business owner want to pay more then what they should?

I think people forget that money that goes to business isnt straight profit.
Stock? Products? Rates? Tax? And a take home profit after everything and everyone is paid

So no, a business mind will go with whatever their business can allow.

Id rather someone have a steady job and a steady wage then someone be paid over the odds for a period of time and then lose said job because the higher rate pay isnt fees-able for the business.

Common sense.

Totally agree. A fair days work should=a fair days pay. No ifs no buts.
Not a pathetic pittance you can top with WTC. If you’re working full time you shouldn’t need any help at all.

Often it's true the business will pay what it can from actual profits. But sometimes they just want maximum profit, whatever.

Why would a business owner want to pay more then what they should?

I've worked a few companies who would happily pay a fiver an hour if they could.

@Blablahblah

You have strange notions of who should get subsidies!

Fathers don't have to contribute to children's care because it's so easy for a mother to do it all herself. So absent parents are effectively subsidised.

Business owners don't have to pay fair wages (so their working mothers best not be single), therefore they get subsidised as their workers need benefits.

People should get paid fairly. It's not difficult. Stop making shite excuses.

@rockingchaircandle obviously something I said hit a nerve in terms of who should be paying what for absent child support, I gave my opinion on that matter which was totally irrelevant to minimum wage increases from a business owners perspective.

Most of the time single parents are either part time employees or don’t work at all, therefore on benefits, it’s easy to pass the buck. If it was easy for a mother to do it all herself as you’ve just said then why complain about it? I know if my mother complained to me about my fathers financial support or thereof lacking support, I would have grown up thinking it’s all down to the man to be the breadwinner, totally wrong in my opinion, especially in this day and age.

Not sure why you’re aiming that “people should get paid fairly. It’s not difficult. Stop making shite excuses” comment in my direction, all my employees are paid above or current min wage, not by choice but to survive and have all my staff on the payroll with jobs.

All of my “excuses” (valid points) are not shite mate, you obviously don’t run a brick and mortar business in an industry that is already in shit due to taxes.

I’d prefer the government to ensure that people are being paid properly for their hours. It’s pointless having NMW when employers can get away with paying you for X number of hours but insisting that you have to (for example) type up the notes in your own time - unpaid of course. Any hours spent doing preparation, training, typing up, admin, meetings etc in relation to your paid hours should also be classed as paid hours.

Also they should crack down on employers using repeated temp contracts to prevent employees acquiring rights. They lay you off for a week then hire you back for a couple of months, over and over, so you’re never classed as permanent or eligible for maternity pay etc.

I run a small business , and pay NMW,
I don’t drive a flashy car or have an extravagant lifestyle , we do however have massive running costa
If the NMW goes up to £10 an hour , I’ll close and my 2 part timers will be out of work

@Doilooklikeatourist exactly my point and the exact situation we’re in currently, with 8 employees due to other business running costs in the industry we’re in. Thank god one other person gets where I’m coming from.

"if your child needs support I suggest you get up and do what you have to" or however you phrased it.

I think it's a shite opinion but at least we agree it's irrelevant!

You've had some strange and callous opinions on here and you don't seem very logical. Or to understand sarcasm.

Great that you're paying what you have to. Legally and all, you kind of have to, but hey, congratulate yourself.

Everyone deserves a living wage. It's not difficult.

Some people don’t get it, it’s alright for NMW to go up, yeah!! Min wage increases!! Payrise!!! Yipeee!! One minute, when my shops rent goes up due to inflation, does the government contribute or help us? Where are the small businesses supposed to get their help from? Never mind, people won’t actually have min wage increases because they’ll be no more job there.

Each industry/sector should be properly evaluated instead of having a global increase, this way, you’ll have people actually wanting to choose a certain career path not for the money but because they actually love doing what they do.

How about this, if you had a salon, you pay all your staff fairly, no complaints, everyone’s happy, you’re staying afloat, but worrying about this min wage increase, knowing for sure it’ll be a struggle due to all the relating % increase expenses (nest etc), currently a full time employee gets £1500 a month + £500/£1000 tips, yes, tips, don’t forget in each type of sector, you may get “tips”, what was a min wage “shit pay” as some people think, turns into £2500+ per month, what do we do as the business owner? Take all the tips and give the employee the NMW increase? Course not, that’s not fair and not how I would want to treat my staff.

This is why small businesses should be evaluated and min wages should be set to bespoke rates and with VAT, Business rate/tax reliefs to boot.

@rockingchaircandle I don’t dispute that everyone deserves a living wage, my point here is that these “increases” are severely hurting small businesses and the government don’t give a toss and it seems you don’t either, as long as you get your £1.60 an hour extra.

@Blablahblah
Well at least you've dropped your other strange arguments!

People deserve to be paid fairly for their labour by the hour. If you can't, then as discussed, your business isn't viable. You have to pay a living wage. Including if the NMW goes up.

This means that if you're not viable you either shut, or do something about it like campaigning for different laws, perhaps around VAT from what people have said on this thread, etc.

But don't decide the only option is to not pay people fairly for their labour.

@rockingchaircandle where have you got the impression I am not or not going to pay employees fairly?

Hey if you’re wrong, I’ll say you’re wrong, call it an “argument” if you must but this is a forum is it not? Probably not the best forum around for a post like this though, considering it’s full of single parent mothers on benefits waiting for their ex-partners to pay the bills.

Nuff said, I’m out! Going to ukbusinessforums instead this is joke

Yes @Blablahblah, best you get your coat.
You're not cut out for logical arguments or empathy!