Wibu to go to HR with this or am I overreacting?

[LivinLaVidaLoki]

I've posted about issues that I have with my manager at work previously. However things are no better.
I sent an email to his manager and to be honest now, things are worse.
He and his manager have a longstanding working relationship and are quite close friends so I think this is affecting her ability to "manage" him.
Loads of the work that he does has fallen to me to do as hes just not done it, including arranging an induction plan for a new starter, and managing her work making sure she has stuff to do. That's just one example.
I raised this and other issues with his manager (including the way he talks about other members of staff) and just get told that's just the way he is.
He doesnt take comments or criticism at all (again that's just the way he is). He is new to our sector and he did a new procedure which he sent out for us to implement.
I very politely suggested he change some wording as the way it was worded leaves our organisation open to challenge. He refused. Not only has he refused, but he sent me a barrage of emails explaining why I was wrong.
So now he has cut me out of the process completely. I have two key areas of work and this is one of them. The new person is supporting this. He has now advised her that should she need help in this area she should go to the guy that used to have my job. Not me, the guy before me.
Also he had a meeting yesterday with changes he wants to make regarding the other key piece of work i have and I wasnt even invited.
For the first time in my whole working life yesterday I burst into tears. However I feel I've nowhere to go.

Do you have one-on-one catch-ups with your manager? If so I think you need to try to discuss it calmly and non-confrontationally in one of those, before taking the HR step.

That said, if I was you I'd also be on the look-out for a different job at this stage.

From working in HR, I think you need to gather your evidence together. There’s often little that can be done based on someone saying this person did this or that, especially if the manager is on their side. At most they would try to find out what’s going on or make their manager aware. However if you have some evidence it gives them more to go on and can assist you in a grievance should it come to that.

He's basically being supported by management to behave like this. They just don't care.

Find another job, no money is worth losing your sanity over.

I would start keeping a diary. I was once in a situation like this, similar issues with my manager backing my colleague as they were friends. The diary ended up being useful evidence.

Is any of the work you say he is cutting you out of documented anywhere as your responsibility i.e one of your objectives, on an action plan, project manager etc? Just to evidence that he is cutting you out of an area that falls under your responsibility. Whatever you raise with HR needs hard evidence

As others have said keep evidence of all the emails between you. I would be keeping them both on the computer and as a hard copy (kept somewhere very safe) in case something happens to your computer files.

Excellent advice starfish

It sounds as though your working relationship has irretrievably broken down. Ask yourself if you are willing to take all steps to make it better and whether you think it would help. If not, then leave. He is your manager and is supported by his manager. You're unhappy and resistant. I've been where you are, even down to having to induct new employees because he was so ineffective.

I left. There's no meaningful way back when you lose respect for the management team.

I work in HR and I’m always bemused at how people find it so hard to work through these issues themselves like adults. If you have genuinely tried to do that then yes go to them for advice, but you have to be willing to resolve the dispute (which will take effort from both of you) not just go to moan about your manager and hope that HR can wave a magic wand. Have a good think about you what you want to get out of the conversation and what you want them to do to help. They aren’t realistically going to wade in and fire him, particularly as senior management seem to support him.

I think the problem is that you both think yourselves are correct and is leading to a clash of opinions of what is correct. It seems to me that procedures have to be written in a specific way to cover all criteria of law or as set-down in a standard like ISO. This is actually very tricky to do in itself (I did it as a job and banned everyone from saying ‘shall’ for a longtime afterwards).
You say that you are emailing suggestions for better phasing of words to your manager and he is failing to accept them. So, my suggestion is to try a different way of communicating with him. If I were you I write out the procedure the way he wants and a separate document with the actual criteria on it. Give it to him to read over then discuss it calmly. Give him the chance to digest it then let him respond.
If what he is suggesting is so far of the mark he needs to be aware of it without badgering him. But you can’t force him to realise it.
It sounds to me like you are both at loggerheads and need to give each other a break and some breathing space.
I know, from being in a similar position, how hard it can be to get a manager onboard, it can be done it just takes a bit of patience.

Can I just clarify, I didnt criticise him. He sent me something and I suggested rewording a part of it as the wording doesnt comply with the legislation we are bound by and would leave us as an organisation open to challenge. I was trying to be helpful.

We can't tell from here whether that was a genuinely helpful point or whether it was done in a way that came across as critical and undermining.
As I often say to my dc "it's not what you say, but the way you say it."

My df is the master at "I was only trying to be helpful" but doing it in a way that puts your back up.

There's a huge difference between: "Do you think it might sound better if we word it this way?" and "That wording is entirely wrong. You can't send it out like that. You really need to understand properly how we in this department operate." (and copying everyone in on the latter)

I don't think even the OP will be able to say, by df would swear his version came across as a very polite version of the former, whereas the reality was worse than the latter.

From what's been written, it could be the OP has a valid point, or it could be that she's taken against the manager from the start and has just been awkward in all her interactions with him. There's no way of telling.

Ask for a meeting with your manager, be polite but assertive and say "We have always done this as XYZ, because of the safety issue here" etc. Then say, "Im not sure if I have this right, but If we do what your asking, this will happen, is that how you want us to proceed"?
Then ask yourself, If you feel that it compromises safety or production, you either take it further or leave on the grounds that you are incompatable with your new manager.

I haven't read your other threads so I may have missed some context here, if so, please take this with a pinch of salt. But what strikes me here is that he's looking to implement changes that you are resisting. You may well be right that he's making huge mistakes but, unless your work is regulated or what he is doing may result in harm, the way hierarchy works kind of puts you in the wrong - these are, to a large extent, his mistakes to make. You should ensure your concerns are documented, but it doesn't sound like these are your decisions.

So, if you haven't already, I think you should prioritise looking for another job. He doesn't appear to have confidence in the way you do your job and you don't have confidence in his vision for your work. That's not a good environment to work in.

The cutting you out of things could well be considered a form of workplace bullying, though, and going to HR about it is reasonable. But remember they are there to protect the organization not to make your job nice again. So focus on concerns that put the company at risk - like the ostracising you from your role and the stress that's putting you under. But in the end managers are normally allowed to change the way an organization works even if their reports don't like the changes. And HR are unlikely to be in a position to second guess your manager or his boss on whether changes he wants to make to how you work are ones that should be implemented.

Have just seen that you are bound by legislation - so some regulation. That does change things a bit. Do you have whistleblower provisions at all? I think documenting concern about contravening legislation is definitely a concern, HR may be the route but they often have llittle power. Do you have a compliance officer? Or any sort of ethics audit?

Leave. The relationship will never get better

All these people saying go to hr. Hr is only there to protect the company.