... to think that charging 30p for a carrier bag is taking the piss and has naff all to do with Attenborough and his polar bears?

[BerwickLad]

Seriously, 30p in Morrisons now. Even a paper bag is 25p. And Sainsbury's are charging 30p for little bags to put your loose fruit and vegetables in. This has gone way beyond trying to get people to cut down on plastic. What is wrong with just recycling the damn things anyway if you don't want them choking sea-lions etc? Rather fleecing customers?

looking at the verges on motorways the plastic bag charge definitely works - there are much less plastic bags flying from the trees.

the discarded plastic bottles however...

Paper has its own environmental cost though

It does but if we’re weaning off plastic and that’s the choice paper is by far the better option in terms of biodegradability.

Paper has its own environmental cost though

It does but if we’re weaning off plastic and that’s the choice paper is by far the better option in terms of biodegradability.

The problem is that you are then choosing one environmental disaster over another. If the planet is "dead" the plastic won't be a problem. It's a really difficult balancing act and I'm not sure what the answer is. We've done a superb job of wrecking the environment on all fronts!

While I agree it seems ridiculous on the surface to have to pay for bags for loose veg when pre-packed stuff abounds, it's important for consumers to get into the mindset of reducing, reusing, recycling even if, at this stage, it makes little difference in the overall scheme of things. Once we do it naturally, it hits home more that there is so much waste. Having three bins at home to put out created uproar locally when it first came in, now everyone seems to have bought into it and the correct bins are out the front every Wednesday!

One thing that I was annoyed about in Sainsbury's the other day was at there was a leak in the pre-packed chicken area and some of the packs were bloody. The store refused to provide a free bag to put them in which I thought was a health hazard. I didn't buy one as it would have contaminated the rest of my shopping. In the old days you could nip back and get a bag from the fruit and veg area or get one at the checkout.

I bought four of those fruit and veg bags a couple of months ago. Reuse every week. Easily fit 2kg of carrots in one.

I'm not personally saving the planet. But if everyone took the view that their contribution didn't matter nothing would change.

You want to buy prepacked- crack on. You want a fresh carrier bag each time- crack on. No need to abuse those who are trying to help.

My next step is looking at meat and how I can that without pre packing.

@SoupDragon

All fair points but then there is no workable option is there so what’s the point of anything?

Presently paper beats plastic in environmental terms. That’s not dismissing the impact of paper waste but to rally against paper because it also has environmental costs minimises the harm caused by plastic.

That’s a bit too much of a fatalist attitude for me, I’m much more interested in realistic options that minimise the damage. There is simply no way for humans to exist and not affect their environment. We’re a pest. However, I’m not going to top myself in the name of the environment and neither is anyone else.

If you need a lot of people to get on board with something it needs to fit in with their wants or it simply breeds the attitude of ‘fuck it. I’m here for a good time not a long time’ and people just don’t curb their behaviours or expectations.

Presently paper beats plastic in environmental terms.

But does it? It is biodegradable, yes. However, it is not reusable and the environmental costs can be high. A reusable plastic net bag for loose produce may be a better answer than a throwaway paper one. I've had some for years and years - way before it became A Thing.

there is no workable option is there so what’s the point of anything?

That's not what I said. You have to pick which bit of the environment you're fighting for. Unless you're growing your own produce there are choices to be made in this particular battle.

Presently paper beats plastic in environmental terms.

Does it though? We have major de-forestation problems. Plus the carbon footprint of using machinery to cut and transport the trees, then the processing energy/carbon footprint to turn wood into paper which needs huge factories, lots of machinery, etc.

Deforestation is not, primarily, caused by paper production.

I work in a supermarket and I have seen the effect the bag charge has had on habits. You'd be amazed at how many people used to want bags for everything - thin plastic bags to put birthday cards in, thin bags for clothes, separate bags for each individual fruit/vegetable, bags for a pack of gum or pack of batteries ... now people would rather juggle their items or stuff their handbag before paying for a bag.

I have had people come to the kiosk with a bottle of water, sandwich, bar of chocolate and ask me for "a small bag". As soon as I say "Sorry, we only have 15p bags for life" they can suddenly carry their lunch rather than pay the extra 15p, whereas in the past they would have taken one for the sake of it.

Same on the checkouts, we can provide the really thin plastic bags for raw meat but we found that if cashiers asked if a customer wanted the raw meat in a separate bag then they would usually say yes, but if we dont actively ask (but still have the bags clearly available) then customers rarely ask for their raw meat to be bagged separately because most people arent bothered unless and until you ask them.

I use a wheeled shopping trolley as it's easier for heavier items as I dont drive (and no way I'm weighing down my shoulders with bags full of bottles and cans for the walk/bus ride home) so I keep a couple of extra reusable cotton tote bags in the trolley to be used for food items and a couple of mesh bags (I use the drawstring bags used for washing delicate items) for fruit and veg when I specifically do a food shop. I just weigh the fruit/veg individually in the department and put them all in the same bag with all the stickers for the cashier to scan.

I also keep at least one canvas tote (folded into a pouch smaller than my purse) in my handbag and another in my work locker. That way if I need to pick up bread/milk after work then I have a bag handy or if I pop into town to buy a few small items and they wont fit in my handbag then I have a bag to put them all into. In the last year I'd say I've had to purchase maybe 10 plastic bags at most, and that's usually only when I've been picking up stuff for someone else with my own shopping and wanted to keep it separate or when I've run out of bags. These bags have all been reused - eg DD keeps one in her school bag for wet stuff (it rains a lot where we live) or if she has to bring stuff home that doesnt fit in her bag - before eventually being used instead of bin bags when they have worn out too much to be useful in any other way.

My gripe is those big elephant bags from Sainsbury's.

One has a ripped seam, they would not give me a new one to replace it or recycle it for me.

They should be viewed in the bag for life scheme too.

Makes me mad that pre packaged stuff is cheaper.

It shouldn't be

YANBU. Although I do bring my own bags so not too bothered, but it’s the supermarket’s holier than thou attitude as if they’re really motivated by helping the environment - if they really cared they would only offer paper or high quality plastic reusable. I think they were cashing in to begin with with the 5p charge and now that a lot of people do bring their own bags they’re making up for the loss by hiking up the price.

"What is wrong with just recycling the damn things anyway if you don't want them choking sea-lions etc?"

Almost all plastic is not recycled in this country and even if it was most plastic can only be recycled once anyway. If not once then twice max. After that it can't withstand the recycling process any longer so the whole recycling argument doesn't work with plastic.

Why can't you just buy a decent shopping bag and use it over and over?

Deforestation is being dealt with.
There is a huge campaign at the moment raising millions a dollar a tree.
It can only help the environment.
When I visited the UK pre bag charge there, a friend use to empty her shopping and put tons of bags in her kitchen bin? Probably 20 on those thin bags.
She brings her bags for life now.
Thank fuck there is a charge. It is not mandatory you just bring your own.

I'd like to see all this kind of stuff monetised (plastic bottles, glass bottles, etc) so that people start adapting their behaviour.

Iceland has done very well at this.

But does it? It is biodegradable, yes. However, it is not reusable and the environmental costs can be high. A reusable plastic net bag for loose produce may be a better answer than a throwaway paper one. I've had some for years and years - way before it became A Thing

For me yes. I think it depends where you count the start of a plastic bags production. If you start with the waste from oil refinery or the whole process of obtaining oil in the first place.

For me a big driver in reducing plastics is the effect on wildlife so paper is my preference with that in mind.

Even cloth bags (which I have a fairly impressive collection of now) aren’t free from environmental impact. I like netting for bags but again what are they made of - nylon seems to be involved in a lot of products so again not really reducing plastics even if they are reused. They’re still ultimately destined for landfill.

Our DC school is now minimum plastic.
They must bring reusable metal water bottles.
The area 10 years ago use to have bags in every corner, along railings.
It has been great at reducing street rubbish on the streets. Now if only the bin charge avoiders would stop dumping their wastage on the street

DD bought some Top trump's cards today.
Box proudly proclaimed it was recyclable.
The box was shrink wrapped, and then in that thick plastic.

WHY?!?

Shops have charged for plastic bags where I live for many years now, it's not an issue. I take a big cool bag, with several cloth and sturdy bag-for-life style bags inside it, to the supermarket when I do the big shop. If I go to the corner shop for a few things I take a cloth bag with me. If I stop at a shop on a whim I just buy the bag(s) and then they end up being used to carry recycling to the recycling bins and then as bin bags.

At the end of their life, as a bin bag, they don't go clogging up some landfill, instead they go to the waste-to-energy plant to produce electricity.

You mean the multiple times in the 80s 90s ect with ozone, nuclear weapons we have been told we were going to die by experts.

Don't be silly @HeresMe. The nuclear threat is not comparable to the environmental threat. The nuclear option depends on just that - some nutter with a god complex hitting the button. The environmental threat is happening whether humans will it or not - we have reached tipping point, it is happening now.

Unless you can change China and India you are on hiding onto nothing..
Exactly. China, India - the whole world needed to change. It didn't. As a consequence, as you rightly concede, we are now on a "hiding to nothing".

USA aren't great either.

Still we all have to try

You can say it is but I bet in 10-20 years a new threat will have emerged. We will still be here in 30 years time.

How many people on here have more than one kid, if you do then you don't give a shit about the environment. However much you pretend. The amount of humans on earth is too much and unless it's reduced all the bluster doesn't mean anything.

Infairness large families are a minority in this generation.
My Nan was one of 14. My DM was one of 8, My DM had 4, I have two.
We are moving forward in Ireland the UK and most of Europe.
It is mainly Christian's who are against contraception and poor areas who can't afford contraception that keep having DC.
It may balance out but seems unfair.
If the planet is seriously under threat they need to clamp down on flights, cars, production.
I want to be here in 40 years, I want my DC and there DC to survive.
If we all make major change could it survive?