To wonder if this Civil Service starting salary is negotiable?

[bagdaddeo]

I have seen a Civil Service job I'd like to apply for. I'm very well qualified for it and have lots of relevant experience so have a good chance of getting it. My current salary (in a similar role at a university) is in the middle of the scale for the Civil Service job so, if offered the role, I would like to think they could at least match my current salary. However, the advert says that new entrants to the Civil Service will be expected to start at the bottom of the scale (around £4.5k lower than my current salary). Does anyone know whether this rule is negotiable?

For context, I would also be getting significantly less Annual Leave and working slightly more hours (37 rather than 35). I haven't yet managed to get my head round whether the Civil Service pension scheme is significantly better than the USS scheme I'm currently on.

It's worth trying on salary but the recruiting manager may not have flexibility. The rules vary.

USS is in real trouble so won't be better in the long run

Depends on where in the CS, some ALBs and quangos have more flexibility and also depends on how many times they’ve tried to fill the role and whether there are internal candidates. I agree that you need to tick enough boxes showing evidence of the competencies on the success profiles to make it through sift to an interview and then an offer. Imo it’s always worth asking for more than you want and letting them negotiate you down if needed. And it’s a band so in theory they can go to the top of that band but in practice their HR dept may not let them. Agree with a PP that flexibility is likely to be good.

It’s not unheard of but it’s extremely unlikely. I know it IS possible, because there is a section on it in our on boarding form!

It would really depend on the willingness of the hiring manager (And their seniors) to put together a business case to get you a higher salary, and there would have to be a very compelling reason for it eg you have very specialist niche qualifications/experience - perhaps if you already have a qualification that they would pay to put you through, thus you are saving them money. They won’t do it just because you were paid more elsewhere. It’s very much that’s the offer, take it or leave it.

My Director wouldn’t authorise the additional spend no matter what, I know that much! I’ve built a very niche and specialist role that I’m about to leave and I’ve discussed upgrading it to make it more attractive to the right calibre of candidates as the skills/expertise don’t exist within the department and they will have to go external, but they’re not interested. They’d rather have a cheaper candidate without the expertise and see how it goes.

Recruiting externally doesn’t mean anything really tbh, doesn’t mean they’re desperate for someone - a lot of the time it’s for diversity reasons not to get particular expertise.

Below SCS level, CS is basically wouldtotally uninterested in matching salaries/terms.

What area of the civil service is it? My experience is that the starting salary is non negotiable. You get a choice which pension scheme to join.

As a person only just beginning to consider CS roles, I hadn't realised that they've stopped the progression payments and that the advertised bandings are now irrelevant. Useful info, it'll make me re-evaluate the vacancies I'm reviewing.

In terms of alpha, it gives a pension of 2.25% of salary for each year of contribution.

Not sure how that compares to USS

In my experience, your starting salary is based on your performance in interview (interview score) and is non negotiable

Which i agree with, it takes the piss when people come in from external at same level earning more than internal but then expecting us to train you up

Civil service starting salaries have nothing to do with your score at interview - all new entrants to the CS start in the band minimum. There are no increments anymore so pay progression is either the 1-2% annual rises or promotion, you don't climb the pay scale.

The min and max are only relevant if you're being promoted, where you will either get put on the band minimum or your current salary plus 10% capped at the band max, whichever is higher. Hence I am currently at the band max having had a promotion to my current role - because I had almost reached the top of my previous pay scale before they bought out our increments, 10% actually took me above the band max so I get the difference as a kind of annual taxable non pensionable bonus. For my new role which is promotion again, I will be on the band minimum because it's more than 10% uplift - then I'll be on the min until another promotion.

My dept do but you'd need to provide evidence of current earnings and do sufficiently well at interview (i.e score above the base pass rate) for them to consider. The recruiting manager would also have a say in whether they were prepared to pay higher than the starting rate. I'd apply and see what happens. Can always turn it down...

@Isleepinahedgefund some parts of CS do base starting salary on score, and payrises can be higher than the standard 1%.
Promotion is not just 10% anymore, its 85% of the top of the band in some parts of CS.
All depends what part of CS

Interesting - which departments do starting salary based on interview score?

We got 2% rise this year now I think about it.

How does the 85% work, do you get 85% of the band max if it’s higher than your existing salary, or otherwise they match you salary?

@Isleepinahedgefund DE&S in MOD main for starting salary om interview score.

All jobs are advertised with a salary band, and you get 85% of the top band or 10% whichever is highest in DE&S so you always get an increase.

My Director wouldn’t authorise the additional spend no matter what, I know that much! I’ve built a very niche and specialist role that I’m about to leave and I’ve discussed upgrading it to make it more attractive to the right calibre of candidates as the skills/expertise don’t exist within the department and they will have to go external, but they’re not interested.

Agree, there are some very rigid attitudes. I previously worked as a contractor in the civil service, filling a role which required specialist skills which they always had several vacancies for in the team,. The advertised salaries just weren't competitive in the wider world when pegged to the bottom of the scale.

Rather than agree a salary at the top of the scale to a good candidate, they filled the roles with contractors at three times the price instead plus whatever the recruiter took off the top!

I'm civil service on a very specialist role and we really struggle to recruit because the salary to new entrants is significantly below than other sectors and there is no scope to start anything above the minimum. We are getting a tiny pay rise this year though: 1 to 2% depending on position in band etc.

Our department heads have spent years begging to the top brass inside the organisation about the risk to the function that we provide and in the wider government with zero success.

As a person only just beginning to consider CS roles, I hadn't realised that they've stopped the progression payments and that the advertised bandings are now irrelevant. It's not that they've stopped them, it's that pay is frozen and has been since 2010. Change of government may mean pay is unfrozen, and bandings become relevant again.

I work for a charity who follow civil service/local authority pay scales
We always start people on bottom of scale for job description/responsibilities which then allows us and them room to move if they perform well

Hi OP. I’m a G7 civil servant. I went in with loads of experience outside the civil service but had to go in at the bottom of the brackets as this was non negotiable. Plus the bracket is misleading as nowadays you not only start at the bottom but stay there indefinitely. Only those who were existing civil servants before austerity are on higher levels of pay.

Unless you are in the senior civil sevice, there is no negotiating starting pay. There is a pay band for each grade with a minimum and maximim. There are different pay bands for London and national pay bands for elsewhere.

There is great deal of anger within the civil service about the pay bands.

The advertised pay ranges are tantamount to false advertising.

Anyone new to the civil service and anyone currently in it but nowhere near the maximum in their previous grade, starts on the minimum for the new grade. Then they will stay there or just above the minimum for years to come. This as a result of no progression payments being in place, a derisory 1 or 2% pay rise (below inflation rate) and continually lifting the pay minimim level. So for me as a result of this after six years in the grade I'm getting less than £50 (before tax) above the minimum. So don't look at the maximum figure thinking that it will be nice to have because unless something is done about the pay ranges you'll be waiting more than 30 years or so to get to the maximum!

Pension would be Alpha.

Sorry, those saying you would start on the minimum - this is not always the case.
I joined as an SEO two years ago on not much less than the Max. Technical specialist and lots of experience.

I work for a charity who follow civil service/local authority pay scales
We always start people on bottom of scale for job description/responsibilities which then allows us and them room to move if they perform well

Unfortunately this isn't how it works in the civil service though. Once you're in, there is zero room to move and you get exactly the same pay rise each year (e.g. 1-2%) as everyone else at your grade. With possible exceptions for SCS but the OP is looking at a G7 role. So if you started at the bottom you stay at the bottom etc.

I have very recently been through just this. I was offered ‘salary point’ which was just in the middle of the advertised band. This was more or less (just about less) a match for my current deal, and there was the issue with less holiday, longer week, and a commute to factor in. I tried to negotiate the pay but they were just having none of it and eventually I turned them down. It’s a shame because it’s a role I really wanted and one I would have excelled in (they knew that too). The nail in the coffin for me was the lack of pay progression. I still get annual increments at my HEI so what would be a match right now would be a deficit on next year’s it packer for me. BUT having said all that, HR told me it was at the hiring manager’s discretion to negotiate so worth a try perhaps. Just have in your head what you’re worth before you start. Don’t settle for less, they should pay for talent!

I think it depends on the department, directorate and the admin budget they have.

This. My department still has pay progression for everyone. All new recruits would join the alpha scheme. But unless you had exceptional experience and were filling a very hard to fill role there would be no option other than starting at the bottom of the scale. Also bear in mind that there may well be lots of others with equally good experience to offer too. A lot of the jobs we've advertised externally over the last few years have attracted such a strong field of exceptionally well qualified candidates to choose from that anyone who met or just exceeded the requirements would have little to no chance of getting through the sift.

I've worked in the civil service for 2 years. Starting on the bottom rung of the bottom grade. I got a letter regarding my pension last week. After 2 year's service (and I'm over 40!) my annual pension entitlement is £163.42!!!

CS here. I always thought (and been told when I got my first post) that it was non negotiable and have myself started at the bottom of a payband, taking a small pay cut. However, having since learned more about how it all works, it turns out there is a lot more flexibility, and money, than I thought.
I would definitely try negotiating but every department has it's own policies, budget, staffing issues. Good luck!

If you can't move up the band, and you can't start elsewhere in the band (I'm sure a colleague of mine did) then what do the bands represent exactly? Every one is just on the bottom!