Historic abuse never excuses repeating the abuse cycle?

[TheQueef]

Three recent events/ threads,
R Kelly and the abuse he suffered.
The murder and attempted murder of six children by their parents.
The recent thread about being groomed by a female friend who passed the OP around abusers.

My AIBU is all these stories have abused people going on to repeat the cycle and become abusers themself.
I'm not arguing that their abuse very likely led to them becoming abusers but I think it's completely unfair on the many abuse survivors who break the cycle and never commit abuse to allow historic abuse to mitigate their crimes.
Are we in danger of tacitly permitting a low level of abuse because we make allowances for the devastation historic abuse has?

AIBU to say it's never an excuse and being a victim of abuse doesn't minimise being abusive?

I think it's more complex than that.

I think people should be judged for the crime committed - so if man A rapes someone, he shouldn't get a lighter sentence than Man B just because he had a hard childhood. The rape victim doesn't care, the damage is the same to them.

However, when Man A is in prison and hopefully accessing some form of therapy, his childhood should then be taken into account when dealing with him, as that will be more beneficial in the long term when he hopefully won't reoffend upon re-release.

So I think you can hold the two views simultaneously. Acknowledging the process that leads someone to commit a crime isn't the same as excusing it

I haven't heard of the story with the six children, what is that?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-50388496

This one, be ready it's really awful.

If we could deal with victims properly then we could hopefully stop some abuse, I completely agree victims (all of them) need to be helped more and have access to treatment.
In the six children case it seems that there is a what do you expect vibe and that SS didn't hold them to the highest standard because they were a known troubled family.

This is the CSA thread.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3719153-To-be-very-concerned-that-this-woman-has-children-trigger-C-S-Abuse

There was a suggestion in 2010 that any victims of abusive childhoods or those that have gone through the care system, to automatically be entitled to therapy.

Of course that never happened thanks to the Austerity measures.

There was a lot of talk about early intervention, which saves money in the long run, but again all those services were subject to cuts and the charities were then overloaded making up the difference.

While the impact on the victim doesn't change, a prison sentence would impact further on society.

However I think we need prisons that offer therapies and services, because at the moment we don't offer the two combined very effectively.

What about the murder of parents by abused children? Or the murder of an abusive partner by the victim?

Obviously there are cases where evidence of historic abuse should play a part in the sentencing.

Personally, in cases like R. Kelly or the countless serial killers/rapists who come from, in many cases, extremely abusive backgrounds, it's not that the abuse excuses what they've done.

What they've done is so horrific that they should be locked up for the rest of their lives.

What the historic abuse does is shine a very fucking bright spotlight on the fact that we should be doing more to stop the abuse when these people are children and providing them with more help/counseling, etc when they are still young enough to help.

I think something can be more understandable or understood with that context whilst simultaneously not making it permissible

I think you've mixed up "excuse" and "reason".

We can deal compassionately with victims who go on to become abusers without condoning the behaviour.

If someone smacks their child because their parents smacked them, and this is how they learnt discipline works, how would you want them to be treated? Educated about alternative methods, or reviled as child abusers?

Many victims of abuse don't get the help they need when they need it and that leaves them hugely damaged and liable to continue the cycle themselves.

I think it's really sad that people have so much sympathy for children who are abused but then as soon as they become an adult all of that sympathy just dissipates and they're expected to just get on with it as fully-functioning members of society. They are still that same person who lived through horrific experiences and just struggles to find a way through each day.

I am not, of course, condoning any kind of abuse, but I do think that the lack of prevention and care for childhood victims facilitates the continuing cycle and those that find themselves as adults with no clue how to cope with their trauma can end up thrown to the wolves.

Causation, excuse, reason it's so nuanced Chou it's difficult.

Clearly (from the six children story) there has been and likely still was extraordinary abuse in Sarah Barrass life and it isn't hard to see how it got to this point but her victims, her children should get justice.
I think the sentence was appropriate in this case.

Obviously no one should be abused firstly to make them go on to abuse.
This won't change unless you have a magic wand that is.
It is the circle of life, you learn what you see.
Some DC are brought up in savage abusive household's they can fight like a trapped animal from age 3.
Other who are abused at times found comfort with their abuser, now we know it as grooming my Dfriend was very confused by her teenage feelings, it killed her as she enjoyed the way he built her up.
It shouldn't be used as an excuse No, though it can be the cause to make the abuser abuse in certain situations.

Knowing the things I know I'm naturally more inclined to be sympathetic to female abusers.
I suppose I fundamentally can't believe a woman would inflict abuse on another woman or child without a scummy man somewhere in the picture.

Saying that it adds a certain betrayal feeling too, I expect some men to abuse but am surprised when it's a woman.
I don't know if I project that onto the victim so want the full punishment.

Understanding something is not excusing it.

If we never bother to understand things we can't take steps to address the causes. And we most certainly do have a wider responsibility as a society to tackle the endemic levels of abuse.

suppose I fundamentally can't believe a woman would inflict abuse on another woman or child without a scummy man somewhere in the picture
Well you need to believe it as there have been many violent abusive women, not as many as men.
The victim survivors of Fred and Rose claim she was the dominant force.
It starts at birth, there are many DC out rain or snow, with parents who beat each other, they miss out on learning in school, have social issues and eventually conclude this is all they know.
This is not alawys sexual abuse in the home, but certain homes with lack of care the DC are much more likely to be sexual abused.
If people want it to change we need to be much more socially aware, how many Mnetters could give these DC the opportunity of work experience in a large power company, let them see there is much more go life than the world they know.
How many educated adults step out to speak for them, yes some but as a society we all need to do more.

I see you mention justice.

As a rape victim the justice I want is:

• for our society to change to better protect women;

• for society to stop enabling and excusing rapists;

• for society to rally round rape victims instead of their rapists;

• for it to no longer be socially acceptable to suggest a rape victim deserved it or is a liar or a fantasist;

• for it no longer to be socially acceptable to claim your friend the convicted rapist was wrongly convicted and encourage people to ostracise his victim;

• for society to stop blaming the victims (not just for being raped, but for being damaged and traumatised potentially for the rest of their lives);

• for society to make the adjustments traumatised women need to continue to live and access the world without suffering further damage;

• for society to stop taking the stance that rape victims must automatically be of dubious moral character in some way and mistrusted whereas rapists should always be given the benefit of the doubt; and

• for society to stop claiming that because a rapist happened to otherwise appear decent most of the rest of the time that "good character" somehow makes him raping someone less bad.

That's the justice I want. Not a broken prison system that damages even more lives and fails to do any good for society. (Not that most rapists ever see the inside of a police station or court room, much less a prison.)

Even if my rapist had been sent to prison, it wouldn't have helped me exist in our toxic society that only has tolerance for the rare rape victims who aren't traumatised. It wouldn't have fixed anything. It wouldn't have even effectively protected other women.

And yeh, I've written that about rape, because my abuse included rape and why the hell shouldn't I say that, but it applies to all abuse.

I think you have mixed up several different types of abuse.

''The cycle of abuse'' is a term used to describe the dynamic in abusive relationships; there is no cycle of abuse that means an abused child goes on to be an abusive adult. Its not a clear cut case of cause and effect.
Many CSA survivors do not go on to abuse as adults but no one knows what percentage or what makes them different.

The couple that murdered their children fit a pattern of murder/suicide driven by the threat of public shame and humiliation. The mother had previously asked for help.
Its a completely different type of abuse to that of R Kelly.

Imo, the care system is not fit for purpose. What happens to children in in care should be a national disgrace. If we can't fix that system, I despair of any CSA survivors being able to get help when they need it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_abuse

Well, of course it doesn't excuse it. But it does go some way towards explaining it.

And the motive and reason behind offending should affect the measures put in place to rehabilitate and protect society.

Sorry to hear that Boxfamily I'm a survivor (still can't go in detail or talk about it almost 40 years later) and I do understand.

Didn't mean to confuse the examples or cycle (can't think of a better word) Inebriati they were the stories that ruminated, all three are examples of prior abuse with the result of further abusing, I didn't mean to conflate them they are just the examples that I'm thinking.

Have you read Strong at the Broken Places?

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/1853813745/ref=tmm_pap_used_olp_sr?condition=used&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&ie=UTF8&qid&sr

I remember a case I came across through work a few years ago. Badly abused boy, was then abusing his siblings. Apparently there was a specific treatment programme that had a high success rate. The whole programme was less than £1000. No one wanted to fund it.

Childhood abuse breaks something inside of you. I've never abused anyone and never would, but I can't have relationships like "normal" people. I don't really care or feel empathy for many people, outside of my DC. I think for some, the "break" is far worse, and they lose a fundamental part of being human. I absolutely do not think it "excuses" anything. They should receive the same sentence as anyone else that commits that crime. But, as a pp said, it should then be addressed in prison interventions.

Of course the ideal is that any child who was been a victim of abuse gets the help early on, while it can still make a difference. But I don't see that happening. I have seen more than once, a woman addicted to drugs due to childhood abuse, and she gets pregnant, child is removed and guess who it's given to? The drug addicts mother! The woman who couldn't protect her own child gets given a second go with the grandchild! I think that's shocking. But apparently it's because life in care would be "worse". What does that say about our care system?

As someone who was abused as a kid, this fucks me off no end. It is NEVER an excuse.

What also fucks me off though is R Kelly claiming he was abused as a kid, and everyone blindly, immediately believes him, yet all those girls and women he abused have been crying out for years and no one listened to them.

@Meruem It is fucked up giving the DC to the DM.
@AngelsSins Exactly.

Knowing the things I know I'm naturally more inclined to be sympathetic to female abusers. I suppose I fundamentally can't believe a woman would inflict abuse on another woman or child without a scummy man somewhere in the picture.

This is extremely dangerous think and provides only harm to those of us abused by women, with mo male involvement.

You might as well tell us our abuse was less real. Less believable

That the person who abused us, pro ably isnt all bad. Someone else made them do it.

No I dont have sympathy for adults who were abused as children and they go on to abuse. They are adults and responsible for their own behaviour. At some point, you have to take responsibility yourself. You cant say "I gave birth to my children I can take their lives" like that mother was quoted as saying and then blame it I historical abuse.

You are pretty much saying most people have an excuse to murder and abuse children, given most of us have suffer trauma at some point.