To say no to reference request for new job?

[Newjob23]

I have applied for a new job. They need two references which I have no problem giving. Except they have come back to me and said they need one from my most recent job. This was a job that I resigned from because it was awful - no handover, bad management, disorganised, bullied from a coworker etc. I explained the situation and new job said they just need a confirmation, even from HR to say I worked there. However, I have been copied into the emails and they have actually requested a performance document from previous position, asking to rate me on different areas and asking why I left.

The thing is my old manager was awful, I only saw her a handful of times before resigning and when I did discuss all the things above (bullying etc) she basically said it was down to 'personality conflict' which lead me to resign. I don't want a reference from her because she wasn't aware of the all of the work I actually did in the role (ironically bullying coworker was) and she wasn't happy when I resigned. I can imagine her giving me a bad reference which may reflect negativity on new job. I have already said I can provide references from positions where I stayed much longer and the managers knew me much better too. So aibu to say to new job no they can't have this reference? How do I go about it?

The managers comments must be accurate even if negative. If she doesn't know the information or can't access it she is unlikely to provide an incorrect negative one incase you query this. I think it is better to explain a poor reference and you have indicated there was a problem, than to not provide one and have your new employer think the worse. I would offer the additional reference anyway.

Surely refusing will cost you the job?

Surely you can get a standard reference letter (dates, position) sent to you by HR that you then give to the new job? That way you can give them a reference without the poison pen bit.

Can I do that PlanDeRaccordement? I feel a bit misled by HR who said they just need confirmation, not a long assessment form. Also this position was only for 2 months until I resigned. I can provide other references for all previous jobs where I worked up to 5 years. Not sure why they need my most recent one when it's only 2 months.

Get the reference from the job before that one. They aren't gonna know the difference other way provided you've worked there in the last year or so. Just get start and finish dates confirmed from your newest job (have hr send you this form and then pass it to your employer if it is fine).

I'd absolutely let them go ahead and give the reference. If they lie in writing, then challenge them, aggressively. That way it will never happen again. It's the only way to move forward and you'll lose the job if you withdraw anyway. May as well proceed in a way that will stop this happening in the future.

They need it as they will want to know you weren't in prison or something equally as dodgy.

If you refuse to give details for a reference then expect the offer to be withdrawn.

They will have a standard template they use for reference requests. It's very common now to provide no more information than dates of employment, job title and salary, so as not to be vulnerable to potentially giving information which cannot be substantiated.

If the job is one where you would expect them to have Safer Recruitment practices then you absolutely must provide a reference from your most recent employer. I can see why other sorts of jobs that don’t involve contact with children might also want to verify that you’ve actually been working for that employer and that there hasn’t been serious disciplinary issues or criminal activity. If you refuse the reference then I assume you’ll lose the job. How badly do you want it? If it’s a role working with children then this will be a requirement for any employer so you’d only be delaying the inevitable by refusing.

I thought most companies would now only confirm the dates you were employed between, job title and that you weren't sacked. Also I believe that you are entitled to a copy of any reference supplied, if it is inaccurate you could perspective the company legally (hence why most companies will do no more than confirm the dates and job title etc).

Put yourself in a potential employers' shoes. I don't think there are many bigger red flag than an applicant who won't give the reference from their most recent job.

For all the new employer knows, you could have been sacked for criminal behaviour, industrial espionage, sexual harassment, anything.

Yep you have to do it! We offered a job to someone and they didn't supply most recent employer reference... The offer was withdrawn.
Is it really worth it?

I wouldn't be worried about this, especially as you have already explained to the new job the situation at previous place of work. It really is standard practice for HR to send a reference request that includes request for information regarding performance etc but its also standard practice for the replying company to ignore the form and send their own reference template letter that only confirms dates of employment and job title. Very few employers will provide any additional comments on performance etc and most references have to be sent from HR and not managers (assuming there is an HR department it will normally be company policy). HR team @ new job said they just need confirmation of your dates of employment and if you refuse then you look like you have something to hide and they will likely withdraw the offer.

Employees only give the date you started and finished work... and possibly the number of sick days. That’s it! You have nothing to worry about.

they have actually requested a performance document from previous position, asking to rate me on different areas and asking why I left

FYI just because they’ve asked for this doesn’t mean your previous employer will provide it. Many employers now are reluctant to give anything other than X worked from to _

My employers certainly wouldn’t and in fact we (managers) do not have authority to give references although people often do in a sort of “off the record” way.

Look at it this way: if you refuse the reference request you’re pretty much guaranteed you won’t be offered this job. If they get the reference it’s quite possible there’ll be very little detail and even if it’s the worst case scenario and your ex employers give you a crappy reference, there’s at least the possibility your other good ones will encourage the new company to give you a chance.

TBH I think in the future you’d be better to leave this job off your cv. It was only a couple of months so a short employment gap would be a lot easier to gloss over than having to get into all this again.

Why do they need a performance document? Just because you've had issues at one job with management does not necessarily mean you'll have the same issues, or any issues, in the new one.

As others have said, many employers these days will only confirm dates you worked from, dates you worked to, any sick days/absences and if you're the subject of any disciplinary proceedings if asked (in, for instance, healthcare, teaching etc). If they give information about you that is false or unsubstantiated, they're laying themselves wide open to challenge, tribunals etc. You should definitely be able to ask for a copy of whatever they say about you.

Mostly when I've left jobs I've left on very good terms but there have been a couple of instances where if they had asked my previous line manager for a reference they would have told them I was an insubordinate mare. (The fact that those particular previous line managers were mickey-taking workload-piling-on inefficient narcissists who couldn't run a tap if it didn't have a shiny award attached to it would not have been apparent.) Sometimes when I was a line manager if we had references given that seemed questionable we would then go to the 3rd reference, and often it was obvious from that that the line manager's reference was just a serious personality clash between a couple of individuals.

"Criminal behaviour, industrial espionage, sexual harassment" would usually come under gross misconduct so be quite apparent under "reason for dismissal", surely? And if it was serious criminal behaviour, then that's what the DBS/CRB checks are for.

I think I'd be inclined to ring HR at your old job and explain the situation, confirm with them that they can provide a reference stating dates, etc, and then get in touch with your new employer explaining that the policy of your most recent employer is to only provide factual information; or, if you can, get the old HR dept to do that. (Sorry, that sounds more convoluted than it should.

If you find yourself in a position a friend of mine did, where her company had the utterly dopey policy that HR wouldn't give factual references and you had to approach the line manager (another situation where the line manager was not renowned for her amazing people skills and ability to get the best out of staff, to put it mildly; this particular line manager also had a policy of only giving references AFTER staff had left, making it very interesting, since many companies won't offer you a job without satisfactory references. My friend ended up having to get 4 references, I think it was, from all her previous managers over the years, all of which were glowing, so that the new employer could see the pattern. Abusive, toxic employer with lousy record-keeping and mini-Hitler manager? No, absolutely not....) then that's a bit more of an issue.

Your old employer is under no obligation to even respond to a reference request. What would happen if they refused?!

We reply at my work but refuse to answer specific questions about employees but will confirm employment etc.

Thanks everyone. I have nothing to hide, I'm just worried the reference might be negative and not a true reflection on the work I actually did. I was given a lot of work in the position but my manager was away a lot and I dont think she was fully aware of everything I did and how long it took - for example technical work which she thought would take a few hours but actually took days - because she was completely unaware of the process/it was not her area of expertise etc. And when I spoke to her about the bullying she treated me more as the problem rather than the coworker sending me 30 emails in one day! Anyway, I will go ahead and say yes to reference and I hope as everyone is right that they'll only provide dates etc and the fact I resigned.

@WhereverIMayRoam good point. I'll probably take it off my CV in the future! Thanks. I'll give old HR a ring too and ask what they will actually provide.

Just provide them with details of your old HR dept NOT your old Manager.
As PPs have said, many places now will only provide factual references anyway.