Boys choir for 6yr olds??

[NothingIsGoing2GetBetterItsNot]

Name changed for this as anyone who knows me in RL knows how perplexed/cross I am about this, so much so I'm thinking of writing to the school but thought I'd check my sanity via Aibu first in case!!

DD goes to an infant's school for 4-7 yr Olds, great school with super facilities, lovely teachers, great after school clubs and a (mostly) great approach to all inclusiveness apart from this one thing which is driving me mad!! As per the title, one of the after school clubs is a boys choir... They have no girls choir. They have a mixed choir which is obviously for boys and girls, but only boys are allowed in the boys choir. Am I going mad or is this really sexist?? I genuinely can't see any reason for it for a six year old, noone's voice has broken they all sound really similar and even then if you're going to have a boys only choir surely it's only fair that the girls should have a girls only option too??

I think I can see the logic, girls are likely to join a choir whether it’s all girls or mixed, whereas boys might only want to join a boys choir. Similar with football / science clubs for girls only.

Hmm Fiona I'm not convinced by that one... I can see the logic with the football as boys, due to biological differences (greater muscle mass etc) have a greater physical advantage but even still not till puberty kicks in, surely? And I have never come across a girls only science club and cannot see the advantages of that anyway? Unless again much further down the line in the teen years when societal expectations and peer pressure have already imprinted on girls that they can't compete or feel comfortable in a mixed sex environment in certain "male dominated" areas...

Also, why on earth would boys at 6 only want to join a boys only choir?? And why in which case would the girls not want a girls only choir??

6 is way too early to be dividing for singing. My elder 2 DC attended a mixed 'training choir' attached to a pretty serious boys' choir he moved up to aged 9. Luckily she wasn't such a keen singer and focused on ballet and her musical instrument instead after that. Not sure what I'd have done if she'd broken her heart over it though.

The more gender-blind activities the better until puberty, I reckon, and beyond, too, wherever practical. You don't want mixed rugby after the testosterone kicks in, or boys willing all the running and wrestling due to bone length and muscle mass alone.

Why not ask the choir leader for their policy and its justification and see whether it might be time for a change?

That's so strange.

It would irk me too!

Have you asked the school/music department why??

Presumably there was a lower uptake of boys. Maybe it was perceived as girly. Hence creating a boys only safe space to increase participation

They did this at one of the schools my children went to. It was actually extremely successful at getting boys to sing in a choir and when they were older a lot of them continued into a mixed choir. Before that the older choir was almost entirely girls.

One of the theories is that the Boys' Choir has the advantage that they can be much harder on them vocally - the voice is going to break, so do as much as possible before it's gone, whereas girls' voices have to be more carefully looked after, as they can sustain a lot more damage. It might be that boys with less 'pure' tones are encouraged into the mixed choir as well, leaving the single sex one for the Kings At Christmas type business. Some churches still require an all male choir for services as well.

There is also an element of creating a space for boys to do something that isn't seen as 'masculine' - some secondary schools do exactly that under the guise of Man Choir. It gets people in who wouldn't set foot into a room populated by Musical Theatre belters, for a start.

If girls need girl only spaces, I think boys need some as well - particularly when outside traditionally macho activities.

But Mitzi that's my point, there Isn't a girls only choir?! If we are going to go down the "safe space" route then surely it should be at least equal? However I have to say though I am of the same opinion as nearlygranny in that I think we should be adopting as gender neutral an approach as possible within practical confines at this stage? At least then there is less chance of a divide developing further down the line in juniors or secondary? If we begin to show them now that it's ok to segregate according to sex (& not just segregate but show preferential treatment to one sex) how can we hope to defend equality forget down the line?

I think I'm going to have to ask and be 'that parent' aren't I?!

A mixed choir will have no problem in girls identifying it as a safe space - but boys often find it a very intimidating place. In the case of singing, the differences do need to be taken into account - the boys go through massive physiological change, girls not so. And I'd actually debate whether boys are getting preferential treatment when they're in the group where there is less requirement to protect their voices past the age of about 13. In a mixed school, the odds are that the mixed choir is formed of around 95% girls, with the occasional brave boy who could experience homophobic bullying from other boys, relatives and society in general.

Pretending that boys are often excluded and self excluded from Arts related activities would be doing them a disservice, just as pretending girls aren't given fair access to bring down barriers to participating in sport would be.

One of my employers set up a textiles club for boys. This was happily attended by BAME boys who had a culture where men sew as much as women - and because of that, the white boys who would have experienced 'are you gay?' type challenges also attended. There isn't any perceived stigma to a girl attending a textiles/sewing/fashion design club, so they don't need a segregated area.

Singing/Dance/Drama is one area where girls do not experience systemic discrimination, self exclusion or barriers to participation on the basis of sex. Just like boys don't in a Rugby club.

To be 'that' parent in this specific case is more akin to the usual 'why do girls get trips out or visits encouraging them to look into STEM subjects as a career when the boys don't?' or 'why is there a special group for people who are BAME/LGBTQIA+++++++/Women when everybody can join the usual default straight white male one?' questions whenever there is anything set up to try and deal with disadvantage or particular issues faced by a particular group.

Boys need a boys only space in this case. Girls don't.

OP, I agree with you that this is ridiculous at 6. 6!!! It will be nothing to do with “safe spaces” or whatever. It will be to do with the perception that boys singing voices are potentially more “pure” and have a distinct tone to girls’ voices, even at this age. It’s a very traditional view, but it’s the reason why many cathedral choirs still only have boys to this very day. Girls voices are perceived as more “twangy”, or something like that. In other words, not quite what they’re looking for.

Anyway, it’s utter nonsense and you should complain, DS was a treble who has gone on to be a bass at 16. He was in a mixed choir at primary that they had to audition for to have a chance of being selected, but it did not differentiate between girls and boys voices, even though that choir teacher was about as demanding as they come.
If they want to make a boys’ choral choir for those with that “certain boys’voice” they think is special or whatever, then they should audition for it anyway surely?

But Mitzi they are 6...............

99% of them, regardless of sex, don't even know at this age what a homosexual is nevermind what homophobia is! And Certainly won't be feeling any kind of "discrimination" either way... In fact I don't know how much attention you pay to popular media but I would say singing isn't even seen as a particularly 'girly' activity in any case - look at X factor, the Boyce, bgt and the like and there is probably a pretty even representation of both sexes and Definitely no suggestion implied or otherwise that singing isn't for boys?!

Actually your whole last post seems to be projected at a much older age group to my daughter and her class mates - with talk of intimation, physiological changes, STEM subjects etc - which I may not entirely disagree with for that age range (more secondary school?) But which I Definately don't feel applies to a bunch of 6 yr Olds.... And this may be the point - whoever is organising this "safe space" is actually projecting a scenario that doesn't yet exist in these circumstances, and in doing so is potentially going to cause it exist in the future... Why do we have a boys only choir, miss? Oh in case you feel embarrassed to sing in front of the girls as everybody knows sinfing and the dramatic arts are girly and might harm your masculinity! Oh yes thanks miss I hadn't thought of that but now you mention it...!

🙄

Thanks *hangingabout" I shall offer those as options when I speak to the school.

Horrific typos sorry

I live in a Cathedral city and the Cathedral choir is only open to boys, and they take them from the age of 7 so not much different. I've never heard of it in a school though, but I know that traditionalists believe boys voices to have a different quality to girls'. Our Cathedral also has a girls' choir but that is only open to girls aged 12 plus.

School choirs in my experience are not that musical.... so it is very odd unless they have very high standards for an infant school .

I think there is still the perception of singing as a girly activity, even in the infant ages, and certainly by KS2. If you don't get boys singing, lots, and really enthusiastic about it, by puberty, then they are unlikely to ever come back to singing as teenagers or older. And choirs need good men! Almost all my primary school choirs were girls, and in lower secondary, there was only girls choirs as none of the boys would join at all. Only in later secondary was there a mixed choir, with a small number of boys - maybe who had come from a system where they had sung in boys' choirs as young children.

Plenty of reasons why it shouldn't be seen as a girly activity, but if it is, then sometimes you have to go with it, and find other ways of encouraging boys, or they won't become singers and we'll lose the mixed choir tradition.

The problem is ( as some who runs a performing arts group for 9-16 year olds) if you don't catch the boys really, really young they don't take part in performing arts.
Positive discrimination is increasing the boys in the performing arts, but there are no where near enough.
I say this watching my group rehearse where only 20% of the group are boys.
All of our boys were given extra opportunities in early primary school including free lessons. At least half of them have an excellent chance of a career in the performing arts, about only 1% of our girls will make it.

I'm not sure I'm convinced about 'positive discrimination' in any form at any age, all the stuff aimed at only getting older girls into STEM subjects irritates me and seems sexist. But I generally assume that the people running these things have their reasons based on experience.

Is your DD actually bothered that she doesn't have the option of a girls only choir?

You believe that gendered activities and homophobia isn't a problem for little boys? Apart from the anecdotal experience of DP, who went on from having the piss taken out of him for wanting to join Recorder Club aged 6 with the girls - by other 6 year old boys - and was beaten up aged 14 because he was on the way to becoming a musician rather than a farmer (so was obviously gay in the eyes of other boys when he walked down the road carrying his guitar case) how many posts do we get here complaining of fathers being pissy about their son wanting to play with dolls, take dance lessons or in some way not conform to male stereotypes? And now they've got the added pressure from vested groups saying 'You're trans' for wanting to do things other than wear blue and play rugby.

nails I don't think she'd given it any thought whatsoever to be honest! 😂 But that in itself irked me as it just seemed the start of the potential casual acceptance of discrimination, iyswim?! We should be encouraging our children to believe they can do anything - based on ability, of course - not that there's some things they can't do just because they have the wrong genitals... 🙄

I don't think there's any point discussing church or cathedral choirs as that's a whole separate Kettle of fish (let's face it the church is not best known for its accepting and inclusive approach, traditionally) and again, it's not the situation at DD's school and it's not the point of my objection which is that the girls and boys are not in this instance being treated equally! To use a comparison with another subject already mentioned the school have an after school science club that is not only mixed sex but sex of attendees is not even mentioned as a possibility and that's how it should be, no? Or based on these 'positive descrimination' arguments should I go and ask why we haven't a 'girls only' science club?!

I don't know why I posted this in Aibu actually as I'm pretty sure Ainbu and can't see anyone convincing me otherwise, tbh

There is a massive recruitment crisis in boys choral singing at the moment.

I sing in a very good choir and conduct both adults' and children's choirs. All of the men I sing with started in boys choirs.

I've seen lots of boys choirs go mixed and become effectively girls choirs very rapidly because of many of the peer pressure related things listed above. It is difficult enough for young boys who choose to sing with other boys let alone girls. There was a time when girls were excluded from high level choral singing (such as cathedral choirs) but that just isn't the case anymore.

Without boys singing we will have no tenors and basses. Many adult choirs really struggle for good male singers and we all lose out if we can't sing great music that needs men's voices.

So Mitzi we should still be pushing for equality and non discrimination and that includes not positive discrimination, in my eyes!

And sorry for your Dp of course but there is no bloody way the attitudes of the kids who did/said that to him we're influenced by any school choir, positively or otherwise, I'd be willing to bet a body part that unfortunately that's the parents attitudes rubbing off... I'm lucky enough (in my opinion) to live in an area that's quite gender neutral in its approach to activities and subjects but I still hear at the school gate such choice phrases as 'stop crying like a girl' and 'no you can't wear that it's for girls' and the like ...this is from the parents and you know these parents won't be encouraging their 'little men' to go to choir regardless of whether it's boys only or not!

I agree it's absolutely horrible and we - & the schools - should be doing everything we can to make sure all activities are seen as worthy for both sexes but I genuinely don't see why that should mean giving the girls the impression that their presence in Any activity isn't as valued?! Particularly as noone is explaining this to them... which as I already said you can't do without creating the reason in the first place as they won't have thought of it yet as they are 6!

But the girls generally feel valued and accepted in activities such as singing, which is why there are mostly girls in the choirs.

Whether they have thought of the peer pressure side themselves or are just acting out attitudes from parents and society is irrelevant - if it's happening, it's happening, and you can't say that it isn't just because they're 6. Lots of people have said that by 6, boys feel out of place in a choir and it is seen as a girly thing to do, and I certainly see this in my experience in choirs. Only when it's a boys choir do they seem to feel differently. The few boys that join the mixed choirs in primary school do get the mick taken out of them. Yes, the school can stop the obvious bullying, but it won't change the perception of it being a girly activity.

Yes, I think there might be a place for girls' only science or coding clubs, if there's evidence that they feel out of place in mixed clubs even at that age, and if that has a long term effect on their participation.

If boys don't start singing early, and feel that it's for them, and get the good early training, then they will not sing as adults, and the recruitment crisis in choirs will continue. Boys are valued, even if they feel they're not. Girls already know their value in choirs, and there are many adult female only choirs as a result, as well as mixed ones that are female dominated.

I am basically uncomfortable with this, but my experience shows that there is very strong pressure on boys not to do ‘girly’ activities such as choir or ballet. And that the only way to address this is to have some boy specific classes.

Same thing as girls football - I saw no reason for it until my dd was effectively forced out of the ‘mixed’ (she was the only girl) team by a year of peer pressure, social exclusion and nasty comments - all despite the very best efforts of the coach.

My son has a boys’ choir at school; it was rehearsal today, in fact. The reasoning behind is exactly as stated above. The previous Junior Choir was supposed to be mixed, but in fact had a fair few Year 3 boys, fewer Year 4s, one or two Year 5s and no Year 6s. It was seen as ‘for girls’, which was then self perpetuating. Hardly any boys being there ‘proved’ that it was for girls.

Giving all children real access to activities that are traditionally seen as ‘for boys’ ‘for girls’ sometimes has to start with a single sex set up. Hence girls-only coding, football, science and so on.