Christmas Plans are being discussed already

[Shewhomustgowithoutname]

For a huge number of years I was alone with DC. I had the older DC with No 1 h and the younger DC with No 2 DH.
No 1 H did not keep in touch with the elder DC. Didnt send presents for them. No maintenance paid either.
Elder DC are grown up with DC of their own. One of them is being a bit difficult about ex h. DC does not seem to get that I divorced her father because he was useless and a bad person. I know I did the right thing for me and DC. Later met DH 2 and had more DC. DH 2 died a few years ago.
The Christmas after 1 of the elder DC invited younger DC and me to Dinner at their house. I thought that was nice and kind. I got there and ex h was there too. I got through it. Was polite but distant to him. DC's birthday came so I offered meal out or meal made by me. Wanted meal by me. When DC arrived I opened the door to find ex h there too. Again I acted polite but distant but inside i was angry.
Next Christmas another invite. We wanted to see DGC/DNs so we went and there was ex h again. This time he was verbally abusive to me and younger DC. He was also unpleasant to DGC.
Another birthday came around and ex h was there again.

This Christmas has been discussed and I am trying to find an excuse not to go. I dont know why an adult would not see that divorced people very often do not want to be in the company of the person they divorced.
I think it would sound childish to say if he is going we are not coming. I was prepared to be polite for the sake of DC and DGC but when he started being nasty particularly to DCs who are not his and he had never met until recently it just confirms I was right to divorce ex h.
Mostly I feel a bit hurt that I apparently can not be allowed to have a celebration without the ex h being present.
Am I being unreasonable to not want to spend any time especially not celebrating events with someone who is not a good person? How do I make this clear to DC without starting a major war?

YANBU. I can't imagine anything worse than spending another Christmas with my exDH.

Why don't you take the initiative and ask your children to come to you this year? If you want to, obviously, that way he can't come? Or say that as youve been to X's a couple of years running you feel it's only fair to go to Y's this year?

Have you told the dc who keeps inviting him that he was abusive? If yes then sounds like they are part of the problem - tell them firmly that you can’t be around him but nor do you want to ruin their christmas. So if that dc wants to have the ex over christmas day you’ll pop round a different day.

I dont know why an adult would not see that divorced people very often do not want to be in the company of the person they divorced

Is there any reason to suppose that your elder dc is harbouring thoughts of you getting back together with your exh, or is it that they believe there's no reason why divorced couples shouldn't be happy to meet on celebratory dates?

This time he was verbally abusive to me and younger DC. He was also unpleasant to DGC

Tell your elder dc that your exh''s behaviour has made you feel uncomfortable and unwilling to socialise with him at any time and, while you're not putting any obstacle in the way of them seeing him whenever they want, you don't wish to be included on any occasion that they're hosting or meeting up with him and you certainly don't want to be blindsided into seeing him without warning

If this starts a 'major war' then all you can do is repeat the above and wait for the dust to settle, but if you say it in a calm and reasonable way I don't see why they shouldn't accept your preferences and accomodate them.

YANBU to not want to spend Christmas in his company but you would be unreasonable to try and tell your DC that your ex is not a good person. They have made the decision to spend time and special occasions in his company. If you say anything to them about him being bad then I can guarantee you will be the one who loses out. They have their own relationships with him and will form their own opinions based on how they interact together.

If you don't want to go then just sort something out and tell them you have other plans.

You agreed to cook for your oldest child, for their birthday - they came to your house for this and turned up with your XH in tow?!

That is appallingly bad manners. Even if it wasn’t your ex, it would be bad manners to bring an extra.

Tell your grown up child that you don’t want to spend any time with your XH. You don’t need to get into why - it’s quite normal not to want to. Ask if they’re free another day around Xmas.

You should have pulled them up on the birthday behaviour at the time.

This is difficult for her - it is her father. Ultimately you don’t get to decide whether she has him in her life - though I would certainly point out the rudeness to her own children. Talking about what he did years ago will probably not be helpful - she will think you’re biased, or right but things can be forgiven. So focus on what he is saying now.

Also, don’t be too hard on her for wanting a relationship with him. There can be a strong pull towards a parent. He may be abusive, but you stick around long enough to get married and have two children with him. Don’t underestimate that she also will be being shown his ‘positive’ side.

@NerdyCurvyInkedandPervy I didnt realise when I put on a meal for DC's birthday that ex h would turn up. I didnt invite him and I am I decided whether DC had the right to invite an undesired person to my house.
DC has been told what happened that lead to the divorce. Ex h is lying about past events I dont lie. When he was called out on something he floundered and blustered.

Why is your eldest doing this?? Thats so wrong to put you in those kind of stressful situations. I wouldn't dream of inviting my DF to an event without telling my DM and they're actually friendly with each other. Sorry but your eldest needs to grow up and look at how childish she's being by trying to play Parent Trap.

Maybe you could sugarcoat the pill by saying that seeing you seems to bring out the worst in your exh and therefore you don't want to socialise with him as there's a risk of others being adversely affected by any uncomfortable atmosphere.

If you put off this conversation it will make it harder for you to initiate it if another Christmas goes by with you meekly turning up with your younger dc only be insulted again by your exh.

Can you be clear with both older DC that you got a divorce so that amongst other things you no longer had to spend Christmas with this man?

I would be clear with them that you want to spend the day with them but not him and that in future they spend Christmas Day with one parent, Boxing Day with the other and alternate.

Do it as a breezy text if necessary.

If we were talking about a younger child or adult than my reply might be different, but personally I think you should just be blunt and say its not happening this year, he is rude to my children your half brothers/sisters and I left him so we didn't have to tolerate that behaviour and I do not expect them to tolerate it either.

There's no question that your elder dc had no right whatsoever to invite another person, whether desired or not, to your home without prior notice and, more particularly, to invite an additional person to a meal when it could have been that you hadn't cooked enough food to feed an extra guest.

"This Christmas has been discussed and I am trying to find an excuse not to go. I dont know why an adult would not see that divorced people very often do not want to be in the company of the person they divorced."

The excuse is your ex is not a nice person and you don't want to be around him. So you want to see your children, grandchildren etc without your ex. Your children should be able to understand this.

"I think it would sound childish to say if he is going we are not coming." No, it would not, it would be very sensible.

"Mostly I feel a bit hurt that I apparently can not be allowed to have a celebration without the ex h being present." You can, you just need to explain to your kids that your ex is not nice to your or your kids and you are not willing to be in his company.

You are most definitely not being unreasonable, your older child/ren are and I would personally tell them. Sadly, this may sour your relationship with them a little but I think if it does it suggests they are not very caring towards you a person in your own right, not just their mum!

Speaking as a child of divorced parents, this in particular is really weird and inappropriate behaviour: DC's birthday came so I offered meal out or meal made by me. Wanted meal by me. When DC arrived I opened the door to find ex h there too.

Would not have even occurred to me pull this kind of shit on my mother, and the fallout would have been mighty if I had.

I think you need to draw clear boundaries with your child. As pp have said, you can explain why neutrally but factually. No need for drama. Your child is being manipulative and selfish, they need to grow up and sometimes this involves hearing difficult messages.

You need to explain clearly to DC1 that there was a good reason for your divorce, and that that reason has definitely not gone away. Ideally you wouldn't have to explain it, but clearly your eldest is not exercising common sense here. They may have delusions about these marvellous hunky dory family occasions and naïvely think that pushing you to spend time with your ex is all that is required to make that happen.

I'm afraid you need to be very clear that it isn't going to happen and that this is a pipe dream. If she wants a relationship with her father then fine, but she cannot force you to do the same. Tell her bluntly that this has got to stop.

If she doesn't know the reasons for your breakup then now might be a good time to explain some of it in full. You may have protected her from the worst of it over the years, but maybe that now means that she simply hasn't understood the extent of the problems, hence her behaviour now.

You can explain all of this and at the same time make clear that her own relationship with her father is her own business and you are not standing in the way of it. She just has to realise that you and her father must be seen and dealt with separately.

It sounds as if you are just going along with things, being polite etc but not explaining to your DC why you don't want to be in the same place as your ex.

Sometimes our older DC don't remember how awful things were when we were married to our ex's. I know what this is like too. Look, you have to have the conversation with your DC. Tell them that you were very unhappy when you were married, and that you divorced for many good reasons. And that you don't want to be in the same place as your ex , ever. And that in future you'd like your feelings to be respected in this matter.

I had to do the same thing after my DD insisted on having "a family Christmas" every year and invited ex every time. I see her and her children every week, so it's not as if Christmas is a big annual day for us. I simply said that I'd prefer to see them on another day, so we now have a family get-together a few days later with her, me, her brother and all the children . It's a lovely day and I have no stress . Try suggesting something like that, OP.

Thanks for your replies.
I have tolerated this because I am sure that if I objected I would be the one cut out. Ex h seems to have the ability to convince people of the strangest things which I would have thought adults would be able to see through.
When the elder DC were teens I made a FOI application. They signed the forms too. They read the information and could see how nasty ex h was to them and me.
Ex h family were horrid. The ex fil assumed male supremacy and even commented in my presence that ex h was to silence me when fil found out my qualification was higher than his in the same profession. His job title before retirement was not that profession and he had been 30 years in that job. Ex h was a "cocklodger". He did not provide for anything and was always wanting money from me. I didnt hang around having DC with him. I threw him out of my house before even knowing DC2 was expected and DC1 a tiny tot. Being a single mum was a better option. Ex h is encouraging DC2 to treat DGC in a Victorian way like DGC are to be out of sight and quiet and eat what is made or go without. Etc.
Since getting in contact with ex h DC2 has become very like him. Constant criticism of me and her DC. A lot of bullying and intimidation. She believes his every word. There was a fall out between DC1 and DC2 due to ex h. DC2 was invited to a friend's house for a meal but ex h made some excuse so that she cancelled the meal at the last minute to do what ex h wanted. That relative no longer contacts DC2. Pals she had for years no longer contact her. I have had people tell me of her nasty comments on SM about family.
I had my reasons for divorcing ex h and I still think I did right. Now that DC2 is acting the same as ex h I would probably divorce her for it too if that was possible. I only stuck with it for DGC. I feel sad for them.
Ex h used to arrive at DC2's house on Christmas day late morning and leave early evening. In the last 2 years he has arrived Christmas Eve and stayed till Boxing day maybe more. He only lives 20 minutes away. I doubt if I would be able to invite DC2 and DGC for Christmas dinner without ex h showing up too. I have no intention of issuing any invitation.
I am concerned that DC2 is becoming isolated because of ex h. This makes her and DGC all the more vulnerable to his manipulations. The DF of DGC has also been excluded.
I am thinking of just giving up because DC2 is an adult and entitled to make choices. If I am struggling to be in her life I might need to make the choice to no longer try to be in her life or the DGC.

It sounds as though he is manipulating your daughter, I think the last thing you should do is considering cutting her out. You need to make it clear to her that you don’t want to be in the same room as your ex husband but make it clear that she is still welcome.

Can you meet your DC2 just the two of you without kids and without the possibility of ex h being around? Build the relationship up from small meetings and times when you know your ex don't be on the scene (work times etc or when you know he might be at football/sports etc?

Personally o would work on being there for her but I'd also try and subtly try and point out what your ex is doing to her.

At the end of the day she is an adult and she will be the one to ruin her relationships with her own kids, wider family and friends. It must be painful to watch but by tolerating your vile ex you are mauvr just keeping this ticking over. I'd also make it clear to your ex if he ever sppeiachrs you or your home again he is not welcome. Maybe seeing you and having the chance to be vile to you is part of the appeal for him?

Very hard on you. just make sure your DC2 knows you are always there for her, but your ex will never be part of your life again.

... he ever approaches you or your home again he is not welcome...

subtly try and point out what your ex is doing to her.

This would cause trouble, no matter how subtle.

Just be there for her, and her DC.

I would have Christmas at yours, inviting who you want. If you do invite dc2 it has to be made clear your ex h is not invited and if he does turn up you need to be prepared to shut the door on him

If dc2 wants to remain in contact with her father, despite the evidence you have shown her, then you have to let her get on with it, but I would still try and maintain some form of contact even if it’s just a text every so often, cards and presents Christmas and birthday so she knows the door is always open

MintyMabel yes you are probably right.

All fine for her to have a relationship with your ex, totally out of order for her to bring him round to you. Remind her how anxious it makes you, how uncomfortable you are to be in the same room. You made a valid choice which she has no right to try to override, that’s extremely poor of her. I would turn down her offer of Christmas if he is going to be there, invite her for Boxing Day but with a strict proviso that the invitation is for her and her children only, no extras to be brought round. It is very poor etiquette on her behalf to bring an extra guest round, regardless of who it is, but especially as it’s your undesirable ex!