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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that if you have the funds to pay for your care home needs then you absoloutley should?

712 replies

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 31/10/2019 07:43

Interesting chat with a friend the other day about the extortionate costs of care homes and how if you live in social housing/rental and are on benefits then the government will pay for your care yet if you have "worked hard all your life and want to leave something for your kids" you are made to sell your home / use savings to pay for your care.

Friend is of the opinion that everyone who requires a care home should have it paid for by the government. So essentially a "hand out" yet also is of the opinion that those on benefits are getting "hand outs" and looks on them with scorn.

My personal opinion is that if you have the means to fund your own care home needs then yes; you absoloutley should pay for some or all of that. Why should the government fork out millions for every care home resident in the country so that a vast amount of them can then hand their properties and extensive savings down to their children?

It's simply not viable to fund 100% of care home needs across the country and if you are the kind of person who gets smug about "paying my way all my life" to the tune of living mortgage free in a 300k plus home with vast savings then you should be happy to continue "paying your way" til the end.

I also pointed out to her that as she will be funding her own care she will likely have more say in where she goes.

The end result was we both agreed the best solution was to swerve the care home altogether Grin but I wondered whether I was BU to expect someone who can afford to pay for their care to actually pay for their care?

OP posts:
endofthelinefinally · 02/11/2019 19:17

We visited all our elderly parents in their care homes. It is very hard work because you really do have to visit daily just to make sure your relative is fed, watered and washed. You have to keep track of their clothes and belongings, keep a very close eye on medication and health problems, tactfully deal with staff because you don't want to fall out with anyone.
I remember drawing little stick figure diagrams to stick on dad's wall explaining how to position someone in congestive heart failure in order not to kill them.
Constantly remind the staff that you need to tell a blind person when their meal is served and assist the person to locate the plate and cutlery. Really basic stuff, but not to be taken for granted.
I know carers are very badly paid, but there ought to be adequate training.
We used to take puzzles and games and spend time with the other residents too, but it is hard when you have a job and children to look after too.

MarshaBradyo · 02/11/2019 19:18

Tbh it was people saying it on here that led me to google, then there were a few articles. One which had the percentage of subsidy which I can’t find again annoyingly.

It used true the media can spin things, but I’m interested in it generally so it is useful to get your take being in the sector.

MarshaBradyo · 02/11/2019 19:20

Btw I’m not arguing for a price war I’m talking about a market with demand and supply to meet that

And value. So self-funders seeking out the best value for their money from an asset.

MarshaBradyo · 02/11/2019 19:23

Lastly you will get greater value if what you pay us covering just your place. It’s not about low cost.

But as you say self-funders don’t subsidise so that’s different

Alsohuman · 02/11/2019 19:23

There often isn’t time to research because you’re looking as the result of a crisis. I definitely was, I was really lucky to hit the jackpot in a brilliant home that had just opened ten newly refurbished rooms. It wouldn’t happen now because that home has a waiting list.

Bargebill19 · 02/11/2019 19:33

MarshaBradyo

Sorry if I come across as defensive. I really don’t mean too.
However I’m passionate about quality in this sector, regardless of department within a care home. It annoys me intensely to see people arguing about things they have little understanding off.
Costs are high. However overheads in the sector are much higher than for other regular businesses. Regulatory requirements are far higher and stricter in the care sector than many people realise.
There are bad homes out there, there are bad staff. But I hope, and believe that things are better than they were.
Staff have mandatory training and have ongoing training requirements. But getting staff is hard and pay is low. Hours are long and it’s a physical job. Unfortunately it can also be a hazardous job at times.
I’m also passionate that people need to highlight bad practice to the relevant authorities.
Finally, thank you to those who do volunteer and chat with residents, or help out in a myriad of different ways. You make a difference.

MarshaBradyo · 02/11/2019 19:36

I actually am interested because I’m not there yet but I want to know what to ask should the time come. What does the fee cover etc although I recognise if you find a nice place with a space you’ll just want to take it.

I know it costs a lot don’t worry I don’t begrudge that part.

MarshaBradyo · 02/11/2019 19:38

And I’m grateful for someone who works in the sector and really cares so Flowers

Bargebill19 · 02/11/2019 20:05

Thank you.

If it comes to it and for whatever reason you need care then - you need to know what your council policy is on funding. They may want to know a vast amount about your finances and financial history - it varies. You will need to know the current legislation on funding cut off points. Ideally it also nice to know what constitutes as NHS provision and what is state provision. These factors change and they vary from council to council and trust to trust- its a minefield. Ask the council what there policy is about finding care homes that they will fund placements at - you could find that they are along way from the geographical location you want.
You should have lasting powers of attorneys sorted - health and welfare and financial. If you have any specific wishes they should be included.
Ask the homes policy on who pays - if you start as self funding and the money runs out - do you want to risk moving at a later date - your family may be able to pay a top up but the home may refuse to accept this.
Care homes need to be visited and visited at different times unannounced. You will see different things happening at different times and different staff. Never be shy about asking questions. Ask about staff ratios, ask how many staff are on overnight. Ask about locking rooms - it’s is an unavoidable fact that property will go missing even in the best run home. (Residents often ‘tidy up’ and relocate items). Ask about things that are important to you or your loved one - eg are there pets/outings/musical entertainment etc etc. Talk to the care staff, management and activity people. Ask to be introduced to some residents and chat with them if possible. Ask around for personal recommendations of homes you may like. Ask if they provide nursing care and end of life care - some do some don’t and some will do but only in certain situations. Does the home accept day residents only - you may feel that a gentle progression into a home is better, they may have a day center attached.
The more questions you ask, the better the feel for the place you’ll have. Check reviews on the internet and cqc reports.
But I agree, despite knowing all of this- when it came to finding a home for a parent - I went with pure gut instinct that is would be the right home. Luckily they are very happy - and whilst it wouldn’t be right for me, their happiness is worth everything.
Age uk and Alzheimer’s uk are excellent at providing up to date information. Good luck.

MarshaBradyo · 02/11/2019 20:10

Brilliant information thanks Bargebill.
Better than questions I had a for nursery place (feel and word of mouth mostly)

I feel a bit bad as my parents are yet to retire, they won’t be reading this though, but it’s really good to know as I’m clueless.

Bargebill19 · 02/11/2019 20:13

MarshaBradyo

Always happy to help. Good luck.

HelenaDove · 02/11/2019 20:35

I know carers are very badly paid, but there ought to be adequate training

Well maybe people need to start being a bit more careful about what they keep voting for.

Because currently if someone who is signing on does not take any job that is offered ( including care work whether they are suitable for it or not) they will get sanctioned.

So in some cases the end result is care workers who arent suited to the work.

Tessabelle74 · 02/11/2019 21:01

10NC4this123
Well that's wrong, as the example I gave in a previous comment is 45 and her eldest is 15, she's not worked since having her eldest who's 27! I know of several generations of families who've never worked. If you read another comment, I said we should all pay insurance, benefits claimants could have it deducted from payments, everyone else pays into a scheme

Alsohuman · 02/11/2019 21:10

Surely if there was a compulsory state administered fund to cover care home fees, it would be a % of income, like NI. So people who earned more would subsidise others, so would people who never needed to claim. I can’t see how it would mitigate unfairness.

Barbie222 · 02/11/2019 21:10

Yes great post @Bargebill19.

mummyrocks1 · 02/11/2019 21:33

I agree with bloodyhateful. Homes should be non-profit without huge dividends. If that was the case they would be cheaper and people wouldn't necessarily have to sell their house or use inheritance to pay for it.

It is a very unfair system, personally I can see why people think it's unfair that people get handouts all their lives and then there care paid for and people who work hard have nothing to pass to their children. But what's the alternative? We can't have a state where people aren't cared for in their old age.

I personally think it's ok for people who have worked hard all their lives, made sacrifices and paid more tax anyway to be able to give inheritance to their children- AFTER they have paid towards their own care.

However, I think there should be a limit on this and the super rich, who have trust funds, or will hand billions down in inheritance for personal wealth should not be able to. No individual needs that much money. All loopholes should be closed so that these multi billion pound businesses pay the taxes they should. If I likes of google, Gary Barlow and Costa paid the tax they should- job done.

mummyrocks1 · 02/11/2019 21:35

But I also don't think taxes should be used to pay for care for people so they can give a house or inheritance to their children.

woodhill · 03/11/2019 08:42

I have to agree Tessa. Everyone should have to pay.

I still find it hard to understand how able people get away with not working if they need to

The80sweregreat · 03/11/2019 08:44

I guess the likes of Reed -mogg would bring back work houses for the poor. My dad used to talk about them and they were not pleasant but provided for by the state. Luckily his mum and dad kept out of them but many didn't.
A two tier system will filter in gradually over the years as the boomers start to get much older and the social care bills go up. The young won't be able to buy their houses from them as they will be priced out.
Not everyone has their own home to sell for care either.
All these points have been made already but I can't help worrying about the future. It's a bit bleak. Sheltered accommodation might be a better idea for some than care homes but they are rare and not easy to find.
More needs to be sorted out. I can't see it happening though.

The80sweregreat · 03/11/2019 08:58

Wood hill, some people just can't work. Invisible disabilities are real too. It's hard to know of course but someone who has worked as a carpet fitter ( for example)might now have damaged both knees and can't do that job anymore. A lot of builders end up with physical problems due to the nature of the job! There will always be scroungers but not every one is. It's a tiny percentage I bet!

Plus jobs are not as easy to get or keep these days too or pay such small wages it's s wonder they survive.
I was chatting to someone who works hard as a cleaner in dad's care home and I mentioned I'd popped in Sainsbury's for a few bits for him on the way ( toothpaste etc) up and she was astonished I could afford to go in there. I don't shop in there all the time myself , but she was saying how hard it is for her to even cover the basics. Some are better off on benefits and I can also see how that could be the case if your working and struggling to even buy the essentials and cover bills. Council taxes are going up and up too.
We all should be paying and saving for old age but if you have a low income job and bills to find , how can you then even think about the future? The home needs cleaners but they get less money than the carers!

woodhill · 03/11/2019 09:05

I do understand 80s about the things you mention.

Fowles94 · 03/11/2019 09:05

I work in care and if you don't want to pay it just sign over your home to your family and gift assets (7 years before in Wales) and you'll get it free. If you want to be tight fisted and hold onto money and not enjoy it then it will be spent on your care.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 03/11/2019 09:10

Still reading the whole thread but for those against using their own assets to fund their care where do they think the money should come from?

When we're talking about people with dementia or other severe healthcare needs, as opposed to normal ageing and reduced mobility, then the same place as it would come from for a younger person requiring healthcare provision. If the NHS needs more funding, then this needs to be organised across the board, on a whole-of-society level. If general taxes have to be raised, then so be it; nobody has ever said that the NHS is funded by magic fairy money - we pay a fortune for it as a country, but it is funded through taxes on all qualifying taxpayers and (apart from prescriptions for 10% of people, but that's another discussion), is not charged for at the point of need.

If the NHS cannot stretch and there is no way of obtaining the extra funds required, why does the burden fall solely on elderly people with the misfortune to get dementia or similar? Why don't we get to a point where the NHS turns away all new pregnant women needing antenatal care, safe births and post-natal care; or people with diabetes or leukaemia, and says "Sorry, we simply can't afford it - do you have any savings?"

To put it bluntly, the care that a dementia sufferer needs will likely cost a fortune, but it won't be required for many years before they subsequently die, largely as a result of it. All of the people who are lucky enough to live to 95 in relatively good health will cost the government decades of pension payments. Then, when they die, their home is still theirs to leave to their children or grandchildren as they wish.

Their pensions will be paid from the tax system to which they, as a part of the wider society, have contributed as legally required throughout their lives; nobody is telling them that, once they get to 75, they need to 'sell' their houses in an equity-release scheme that allows them to live there for the rest of their lives, before ownership passes straight to the company who bought it, as they will henceforth no longer be getting a pension when they have their own assets and shouldn't be expecting to pass them on to their family and relying on the government to pay their later-life living costs.

Interesting how there never seems to be a shortage of money to spend on wars and willy-waving projects like Trident, though.

But I also don't think taxes should be used to pay for care for people so they can give a house or inheritance to their children.

So you're in favour of means-tested NHS provision for ALL age groups, then, with healthcare oly being provided free to the very poorest - or is it only the elderly (who, ironically, have likely paid the most tax as a group than any other), who should be forced to go it alone?

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 03/11/2019 09:17

I work in care and if you don't want to pay it just sign over your home to your family and gift assets (7 years before in Wales) and you'll get it free. If you want to be tight fisted and hold onto money and not enjoy it then it will be spent on your care.

Which is all very nice as long as you get 7 years' notice before the first signs of dementia might set in, which can be relatively young (and with the full knowledge that, for most people, it never will). Should we all just cede all responsibility to take care of our own assets and make all financial decisions to our children once we hit 45 or 50 - when our children will still be very young and likely immature with money (quite probably also not yet adults)?

Also, the elephant in the room: where will you live once you've given your home to your children? If you stay there and don't pay them a monthly rent at the going market rate (on which they will be taxed), it will be considered that you haven't actually 'given' it to them at all, so the plan will fail anyway.

Alsohuman · 03/11/2019 09:29

I work in care and if you don't want to pay it just sign over your home to your family and gift assets (7 years before in Wales) and you'll get it free. If you want to be tight fisted and hold onto money and not enjoy it then it will be spent on your care.

This wins the thread for naivety for the reasons @WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSauasageRoll outlines.