To think that if you have the funds to pay for your care home needs then you absoloutley should?

[BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz]

Interesting chat with a friend the other day about the extortionate costs of care homes and how if you live in social housing/rental and are on benefits then the government will pay for your care yet if you have "worked hard all your life and want to leave something for your kids" you are made to sell your home / use savings to pay for your care.

Friend is of the opinion that everyone who requires a care home should have it paid for by the government. So essentially a "hand out" yet also is of the opinion that those on benefits are getting "hand outs" and looks on them with scorn.

My personal opinion is that if you have the means to fund your own care home needs then yes; you absoloutley should pay for some or all of that. Why should the government fork out millions for every care home resident in the country so that a vast amount of them can then hand their properties and extensive savings down to their children?

It's simply not viable to fund 100% of care home needs across the country and if you are the kind of person who gets smug about "paying my way all my life" to the tune of living mortgage free in a 300k plus home with vast savings then you should be happy to continue "paying your way" til the end.

I also pointed out to her that as she will be funding her own care she will likely have more say in where she goes.

The end result was we both agreed the best solution was to swerve the care home altogether but I wondered whether I was BU to expect someone who can afford to pay for their care to actually pay for their care?

One thing I do know - family carers should get compensation where possible for the years of eldercare before the oldster goes into a home.

Old people need to hand on inheritance; not for social inequaity, but for 5-10 years' salary that one of your children (guess which sex) had to give up to look after you. Attendance allowance can't work - but the ££ is miles better spent on housing and pensioning family than it is going into the coffers of a care home conglomerate.

X post I see they did decide

Given the choice many of us would probably not want the antibiotics at all id we were in a locked facility with dementia.

Of course. But surely it’s obvious why the care home would err on the side of keeping the person alive.

So many people equating not having much money with being lazy and feckless. WTF!! Maybe you need to read a bit more about the realities of private renting and low wages.

I don't know what the answer is but I have filled in an advanced directive form for myself, declining antibiotics and other treatment in the future when my quality of life is poor. I hope my wishes are adhered to. Sorry if that offends people, but this is what I want for myself, having seen the suffering and vulnerability of my mum in extreme old age.

@Tessa this annoys me too.

I never understand how these supposedly lower income families afford all these non essential items but don't have money for their dc's travel costs etc

I certainly don't equate having very little money with laziness but at the margins where people start having to pay the scale is steep. A person on below average income who has lived in a council house, spent freely on holidays etc and has no private pension will not have to pay. A colleague on the same pay who has bought a modest terraced house in a poorer area and paid into a pension scheme will have to pay. It is difficult to make this fair.

@Charley50 exactly this 👏🏻

@Charley50 even relatively high wages does not always create wealth. There are so many couples we know who earn far less than us but bought at the right time and now there over all living costs are half... all we’ve done wrong there is be born at the wrong time. People are just very closed minded. It is possible for someone to live frugally and make the right decisions, work hard and still end up with nothing!

Laurie, it's not euthanasia if it's your own choice that you make when younger, after witnessing the realities of life when very old, doubly incontinent, unable to speak, eat, walk etc.

Your choice that NHS / legal system should respect.

There isn't such a thing as free care. Don't social and state funded care homes take the state pension from the people in the care homes to pay for their care then they get a tiny percentage of it for a couple of luxuries?

It's hard to answer as a lot of people would only be able to afford a limited amount of care.

My gran has been forced into a care home which costs almost £1k per week. She has a home worth £80k and has lived frugally all her life. We have no way of helping pay for her care and as my mum is ill, she will also end up needing expensive care eventually yet won't have any inheritance to help pay for this as my gran's house will have to be sold to pay for around 80wks worth of care. What will happen to her after this money runs out is anyone's guess.

Why should someone who has worked many years be forced to sell their very small inexpensive home to pay for their care when there are so many people getting it for free who have never worked? I think it's disgusting.
I personally think it's time we stop paying for people to live off the state their entire lives - ie: if you've never paid anything in, you get fuck all out - minimum of everything possible should be given. What is available should be for those who have paid their way.

My contribution in taxes increases yearly for elderly care (per the statement showing what you're paying towards), but where does this go? It's certainly not helping my gran as she's having to pay for herself.

My gran also paid extra national insurance all her working life to ensure she got a good state pension - yet she never received it back and is on a low pension. She was never a kept wife or only had her husband's contributions to rely on like a lot of older women her age, so she's absolutely furious she is treated as if she didn't contribute fully.

The care home takes pension, attendance allowance and any other assets/ money they can to cover fees.
The bulk of the fees cover living costs/ accommodation/ food ( social care). The nursing care element is usually around £100 per week, no matter how ill the resident is.
Managing an indwelling catheter doesn't count as nursing care for example. Neither does administering medication.
I used to visit care homes
(community nurse) and was frequently appalled at the risks taken with drugs. Lack of knowledge/ understanding left vulnerable, sick residents at risk.
My own father got pressure sores in his expensive care home because staff left him in his wheelchair for hours on end because it was easier than transferring him to his comfortable chair.
It is really difficult to qualify for nursing care.

@Doormat247 no disrespect but in that way of thinking there should be no help for your gran once her money runs out ....

Why should people who saved enough and have enough to cover their care subsidise your gran after her 80 weeks is up.....

Think about it............

Your choice that NHS / legal system should respect

I don’t disagree.

But given that they don’t, we can hardly criticise care homes for keeping their inmates alive, now can we?

I remember in the 80s the council used to provide home helps for the elderly but I suspect this has all gone.

Would it have been better if the councils still ran the care homes or would there not have been enough places for everyone? Were they more reasonably priced

To those saying withhold antibiotics etc and let nature takes its course - it really isn’t that simple.
Someone when sound of mind, my have expressed a wish to have all possible medical interventions to prolong their life no matter what the result. They may have even expressed this wish in a legal document. At that point it’s is moot what others think is ‘in the best interest of the patient’ further down the line. That’s our legal system.
It is also difficult to get someone who is well, to sign a health and welfare POA to allow someone else to make medical decisions on their behalf when they are ill. - it takes a lot of trust to do so.
Also, do not forget, some families refuse, for whatever reason to listen to medical/care people telling them what the reality of their loved ones life really is. They will point blank refuse to accept that ‘Aunty Jean’ thinks walking out of her front door half naked having ‘cooked’ her cornflakes in the gas stove that she’s left turned in but not lit, has severe dementia and is not safe to live alone and will never ‘get better.’ These people will want everything done for their loved ones even though there is little quality of life.
Then you need to factor in those that will agree that the sensible, compassionate response is to let their husband quietly fall asleep to never wake again. But, when that time comes, they just can’t, their love for their husband will not let them withhold treatment.
The idea of ‘ I wouldn’t let me animals suffer like that so why do we let our human population suffer’ is sound - but fraught with emotional and legal ramifications.
What we need is a sea change in care provision and funding in this sector and how we all approach the inevitable - death.
Non of know what lies around the corner, whilst you can plan, you are lucky if those plans come to fruition. For the rest of us, we are lucky we have a social safety net - albeit one with rather large holes we need to mend.

@NC4this123 if you read my post properly, she's been conned out of her decent pension which means she doesn't have the money she was ENTITLED to. I have fucking thought about it, and she worked from being 15, so why should she be entitled to less than some scrubber who lived off the state for their whole life and never even paid into a pension???? Answer me that one.

We live in an area where £80k is a decent price for a house. So why is it £1k per week for care in a poor area? What do they actually expect people to do?

@LaurieMarlow - don't know if care homes and HCPs respect people's wishes currently. When my mum was very ill, the consultants did ask if she had a DNR, and also if she had any other wishes written down re: treatment or declining treatment. Maybe they do take it into account if it's written down, like my wishes are.

To add to my last post my gran isn't attended to a lot, pretty much just sat in a chair all day. She isn't catheterised etc so doesn't need anything other than being helped to the loo a few times a day.
Toilet roll is rationed (one piece at a time), sugar isn't allowed for her tea as it's wasteful, the food is crap - who thinks fish fingers and chips is a suitable meal for a 90yr old?
She isn't going mental, she has all her faculties but she's in constant pain from her arthritis. This is her only issue really but they deemed her as needing 24hr care which we can't provide ourselves. We've already been told she won't be released into my mum's care as she's not well enough to care for her.
And this is costing £1k per week. It's an absolute piss take.

My parents are not wealthy, Abergavenny house, no massive cash savings, VERY modest annuity and actually their income qualifies them for tax credit.

And I am watching the value of their house get swallowed up by care fees as they both have debilitating degenerative conditions.

I will be the same. I have worked hard in a low paid (but socially valuable) sector, lived thriftily, few luxuries, one low performance second hand car, no big holidays, and we have bought our modest semi detatched house.

I will spend my money, enjoy my retirement, downsize like crazy as early as possible and give my Dc enough for a deposit at least, and do myself in if anything debilitating or degenerative starts.

It is hard not to feel a little bitter when those who have paid tax all their lives, worked hard to buy a house, cannot leave anything of their labours to their kids.

@Doormat247

No need to swear. They were your views I was pointing out to you. Not mine. But this is the point I am making, it’s all well and good to say these things but when it comes to real people it’s different and as you’ve proved brings emotion.
It’s no ones problem she was conned out of a pension unfortunately. Just like it’s no ones problem some people end up with nothing to contribute. Very few people will go their whole life without working a day and if they have there would be a good reason for it. Would you honestly deny those people care as you deem your gran as worked ‘harder’ ( although also has little to contribute may I add....

Bargebill - I'm not talking about deciding what treatment our elderly relatives should or shouldn't have, but about deciding now what treatment WE want in the future, knowing what we know about the realities of living longer. I would never have pushed my mum into declining treatment, it's not my place to go so, but for myself I've written a document declining treatment for myself.

So many people say 'take me off to Switzerland, put a pillow on my head', but who actually bothers to write down their wishes and hand that to their GP.

doormat dreadful that your dm has no say in it.

@NC4this123 yes I would deny decent care to those who haven't worked. They don't deserve anything if they haven't contributed. The town I live in has produced a huge amount of these lazy people - yes they are lazy layabouts before anyone questions it. Generations of people who have not and will not ever work. They spend their money on drink and drugs, costing us thousands upon thousands when they need medical care due to their shitty lifestyles and even more in prison costs.

Obviously some can't contribute due to disability etc and this is a different issue and not part of my point.

Sorry my gran has so little to contribute but she had a decent income for our area - yes it was a pittance nowadays but in the 1940s when she started working do you think she could possibly be on £50k a year? She retired many years ago and wages were still shit so that's why she has 'so little'. Please bear in mind that women were paid fuck all - she did a man's job for basically a child's wages.

@woodhill yes she's devastated. She's spoken with various care management folks and they all agree she has no chance of being allowed to care for my gran.
She can't do 24hr care anyway but the main issue is that if my gran falls, there is no way my mum can help her due to her own health problems.
She also has a husband in kidney and heart failure so they say my mum has too much to do already and has to think of her own health.