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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to ask what you think is normal

50 replies

GorgonzolaTombola · 28/10/2019 10:06

Quite often on here people advise LTB and NC. Many people seem to have very high standards in terms of personal relationships. That's fine, great actually, but I wonder if it's really normal to have such a blissful life that almost any problem means not tolerating someone and cutting them out of your life.

I do not have a normal family and I have never had a romantic relationship without things going on that would get immediate LTBs on here.

So my question, more succinctly, is.. if you feel like you have a good family life and a good relationship what constitutes a bad day?

If you tell people to LTB on here, what does a bad day in your relationship go like, as in a bad day that you can tolerate as some rough with the smooth.

My reason for asking is that I had (another) horrible row with my partner of 7 years last night and I am in 2 minds (as he probably is) what to do now.

OP posts:
Shoxfordian · 28/10/2019 11:06

We don't argue about anything on a day to day basis. We have the same values and ideas about how we want to spend our time, our money and what we want to do. My dh does as much, if not more, than me around the house without me asking him to, or expecting lavish praise for doing so. We like doing many similar things together but give each other space to do things with friends or alone.

I wouldn't ever stay with a man who cheated, pressured me for sex, was violent, didn't do any housework or was generally disrespectful. I write ltb all the time

GetOffTheTableMabel · 28/10/2019 11:13

DH and I have been together for 22 years, married for 19. We do have a happy and easy day-to-day relationship. We agree about most things. But this does mean that we’re quite bad at disagreeing. We haven’t had a lot of practice at arguing and resolving things and when we do argue it goes pointlessly round in circles and usually ends up turning into a row about the way that we are each rowing,
(We do really only row about once a year - although we’re definitely overdue for one as it’s been a couple of years now!).
If I know that I’m even partly in the wrong, I feel I ought to explain myself. This pushes DH to greater levels of anger. I’ll be saying “I know but” or “I’m sorry but” because I feel he is owed an explanation or that if I just explained the misunderstanding would be alleviated. He hears something quite different. He thinks that ‘but’ means I am not at all sorry. I have had to learn to draw a very clear verbal distinction between any apology and any explanation- sometimes even waiting overnight. He’s a gentle character but he is certainly more likely to become irritated if he’s had a lot to drink and I know that I express myself poorly if I have had wine. Experience has taught us not too discuss contentious issues on a Friday night!
Above all, we respect each other and we genuinely believe that the other is a good person who would never intentionally hurt or disrespect the other. We find forgiveness of life’s little irritations comes easily because we trust that we always have each other’s happiness at heart.

HungryForApples · 28/10/2019 11:43

We don't have whole bad days, we only have occasional bad hours. For example I get annoyed at him for something minor and have a good rant. Then soon after when I've calmed down I apologise for ranting and we discuss it more calmly and then have a cuddle.

GorgonzolaTombola · 28/10/2019 13:09

Thank you everyone for your perspectives, they are really helpful.

@Pinkblueberry If your standards are low don’t be surprised if your stuck in an unhappy relationship.

A lot of people don't really know they have low standards until the consequences of those low standards start kicking in. I agree that the lazy person you date will become the lazy partner around the house but the correlation isn't always so direct. A relative of mine married a man who called her names, swore at her and generally was an abusive alcoholic arse, he didn't behave like that when they dated.

Were there signs before they got married and had a baby that something wasn't right? I'm sure there were, but she didn't consider them important enough to make a fuss over. So, I think people with low standards aren't good at pinpointing an actual red flag among normal day to day human failings.

Like many people from an abusive background she compared an end result to a beginning. Her father was a very unpleasant man and her whole family weren't great so she thought her husband was fine! She didn't see that his little bit of bad behaviour mixed in with the good wasn't how it was going to stay.

We all have to tolerate some flaws in the people around us but I think for people who have been around that abusive atmosphere our idea of normality and even high standards is actually low standards.

I don't consider the relationship I am in abusive btw, but due to my upbringing I don't really have a good grasp on what's acceptable and not.

I'm glad you found someone so compatible :)

OP posts:
GorgonzolaTombola · 28/10/2019 13:21

@GetOffTheTableMabel what you posted resonates with me quite a bit tbh. There's not been much arguing in our relationship (prior to this year) and we actually run a business together where we regularly disagree but never argue..possibly because there is a framework to disagree. I think maybe we don't know how to argue properly over personal things.

Experience has taught us not too discuss contentious issues on a Friday night!

Heehee Wine Smile

OP posts:
Pinkblueberry · 28/10/2019 13:36

I completely agree with you’ve said OP and my comment wasn’t in relation to abusive relationships, I think that’s a completely different scenario (I was going to say so in my post, but it was getting a bit long Grin) I completely understand that emotional abuse and controlling behaviour is something that can be very gradual and creep up on people. But I don’t count a relationship where one partner does all the housework/takes on all the family responsibility and organisation while the other is purposely incompetent as abusive - as you said a lazy ‘manchild’ is usually quite easy to spot and I think some women just need to have a little more self respect and know they don’t need to settle or even start a relationship with someone like that and I’m just very unsympathetic and really don’t understand why people do - there are great men out there! Apologies for probably missing the point of your OP, as you might be able to tell I’ve seen a few posts that relate to what I’ve written and I took the opportunity to vent! I think really what’s ‘normal’ isn’t quite so important as how you feel in a relationship - I definitely believe that relationships should be pleasant over all, if someone is making you upset/frustrated/low in confidence most of the time then that shouldn’t be considered the norm - surely it’s then better to be single!

Lllot5 · 28/10/2019 13:42

Think it depends on what your dealbreaker is. Some people can turn a blind eye to cheating others won’t tolerate shouting.
You need to just find your match. Easier said than done I know.

easyandy101 · 28/10/2019 13:47

Relationships aren't always easy

Mr and partner have an argument every once in a while, we get over it, they never go too far

I often imagine the LTBers on here as having no one left to L, it seems like some people's reactions to everything and anything

easyandy101 · 28/10/2019 13:48

*me

Happyspud · 28/10/2019 13:50

A bad day is that you don’t really feel the love. One or both of you are a bit snappy or needing their own space. But honestly we both know the love is still there, just life is in the way that day, and the level of respect NEVER drops. We shut mouths before saying anything rude or unfair. Every time.

Aquamarine1029 · 28/10/2019 13:56

Another horrible row? My husband and I have never had a row. We've had disagreements, of course, but we have never shouted at each other or used abusive language. That would be completely unacceptable to both of us. Why live your life with someone you can't even remain civilised with?

Happyspud · 28/10/2019 14:00

Yeah, a horrible row for us is when we both look each other in the eye and don’t compromise or concede. The level of heat is ‘well that’s MY opinion’ and ‘FINE’. And then we sit a little huffy for about 1 min.

Beechview · 28/10/2019 14:07

Dh and I do have rows. We’ve had quite a few in our 19 yr marriage and they’ve been far from civil.
I’m not proud of it but it happens.
I also know that we are each other’s supporters and ‘cheer leaders’ and want each other to be happy too.
We laugh a lot and are always kind to each other and will always try to accommodate each other’s plans around the kids.
My deal breakers are definitely an affair and if I felt he didn’t care about my happiness anymore.

pallisers · 28/10/2019 14:42

What is helpful to me is that I have a relationship with a sibling that is very tricky and difficult. Over my life I have found I tiptoed around them, walked on eggshells, felt in conversation that I was trying desperately to steer a boat in a direction it really didn't want to go in. I never felt like I was being completely myself with the person although I love them and we are close as siblings. I put up with way less shit now (after a major major confrontation which was not pretty - not doing what they wanted had exactly the result I knew it would but we got through it). So I always knew that I could not and would not tolerate that in a husband. Reading on MN, it seems like a lot of women are tiptoeing around husbands, trying not to get them angry or upset and not being themselves at all in the relationship. And then sadly asking "is this abuse".

So my relationship with my sibling is truly hard work at times. My relationship with dh has ups and downs, good times and bad but is never really hard work - just normal living and relating to someone you love.

From MN alone (and I know this is just a snapshot) I think women often have standards that are way too low.

Dollywilde · 28/10/2019 14:59

DH and I have been together 7 years. My parents have quite a volatile relationship so I know what you mean about not having a good frame of reference for what is abusive and what isn't (e.g. my dad will regularly call my mum an 'stupid bitch' or whatever during an argument, I literally cannot imagine DH saying something like that to me).

I sometimes tell DH that I feel like ours is an exceptionally good relationship, he just laughs and says it's not exceptionally good it's just normal. We get on each others nerves and do often swipe at each other, but I can count on one hand the number of blow out fights we've had. Swiping at each other (which I'd define as @Happyspud's 'FINE' stuff) maybe happens once a month or something and tbh we'll be over it in under an hour - one of us will go over and say 'look, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have got like that' and the other will go 'don't be silly, it was my fault...' I think we're just incapable of holding grudges.

In terms of the big fights, they've always been the ones we need to learn from and they've generally been over in a day but we've made a point of talking about what we needed to learn from it. For example, one fight was where I had some potentially serious health issues and I blew up at DH because he wasn't doing any research about it and was instead relying on me to tell him what he needed to know, and I was exhausted and scared and needed him to be doing his own research and supporting me. He learned that despite me being Ms Organised and The One Who Always Researches Stuff there are times when I need him to do that and step up to provide emotional support.

On the flip side, there was a time that he was angry with me because I made a joke at his expense with friends and I made him feel small, which hadn't been my intention but with hindsight I can entirely see why he felt insulted and embarrassed. What I learned was that he's not always the laid back and relaxed person that he makes himself out to be and he's actually more sensitive than he seems. I still feel dreadful about having made him feel that way and as a result I catch myself when talking and try not to prioritise the joke over his feelings.

Either of those argument situations could have elicited a 'LTB' from me on here if someone had posted about it and the DH/DP was refusing to see what they'd done wrong.

However, when it happened for us it didn't feel like a LTB situation because we managed to resolve it and took steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. We're still learning - we always will be. But mistakes make us human, it's how we deal with them and move on that counts.

ChristmasOnTheIsthmus · 28/10/2019 15:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Alicia9999 · 28/10/2019 15:02

My standards are based on respect. I don't keep people in my life that don't respect me or treat me with kindness. Everyone has bad days, but at the core it's about being a good person and wanting the people you love to feel loved.

I also don't tolerate people with sketchy morals. I think that's a decent standard to have and has worked perfectly for me so far, I'm surrounded by amazing people.

Graphista · 28/10/2019 17:26

“I think there’s a lot of criticism of NC from people who haven’t ever had close relationships with people who are horrible to them and refuse to change.”

Absolutely!

Every time I see a thread/post saying people go nc “too easily” I think “there speaks someone with not a CLUE how awful it is to be related to someone who treats them like shit!”

I come from a dysfunctional/toxic family - I’m not even just talking rows, I’m talking abuse, violence, addiction, serious shit stirring etc. At various points I’ve been nc/lc with all the members of my immediate family and am now completely nc with my sister (for the 3rd time, I was regrettably persuaded/pressured to get back in contact by my mum the 2 previous times - sister is very much mums golden child) who is a fucking nightmare! Issues over DECADES including assault, fraud, theft, abuse, shit stirring like you wouldn’t believe! My life is SO much easier not being in touch with her and even though I’m not I’ve unfortunately learned of lies she is STILL spreading about dd and I.

I also disagree that advice to go nc/Ltb is given on here for trivial reasons/one off incidents. I’ve yet to come across that genuinely being the case, when posters advise nc/ltb it’s because the person the op is talking about either did something atrocious and/or there’s a long history of bad behaviour that as a whole warrants the advice.

What I HAVE seen is some posters saying “I read a thread where op was told to ltb and all he did was x” when I have read the same thread they’re disparaging and x 1 wasn’t as trivial as they’re making out and 2 was a “last straw” incident and the dh/dp has a long history of being a disrespectful/tight/selfish/lazy/abusive twat! Ditto with certain in-law or even own shitty family threads.

Those who haven’t had to deal with this shit don’t get it, that’s why there’s the stately homes thread, the people that post there get it and know the others on that thread get it too.

As a divorcee who’s mostly been happily single for nearly 17 years I also think many women’s bar for acceptable behaviour in a spouse/partner is ridiculously low! My ex was a lot of things when we were together, but he was never lazy, tight, selfish, disrespectful or abusive (until the end - affair). He pulled his weight on housework etc, was a hands on dad, generous, respectful and supportive. I wouldn’t have tolerated HALF of what some on here who claim to be in good relationships do! Men who do sod all at home, won’t do night tasks with babies/young children, won’t fairly share household income, spend whole days and nights away from home participating in hobbies or even addictions, bitch about not getting all their needs met (especially sex!), begrudge their wives/partners a life outside the home sometimes inc a job! I’m frequently appalled by how shit many men are as husbands/partners and while I’m aware on mn of course people mostly tend to post the negatives as they’re seeking advice on them, I see it in real life too. I can count on ONE hand the decent men I know who are genuinely good husbands and fathers, the majority are pretty poor but if they’re not the absolute worst the praise they get for doing what most women do without even getting recognition is crazy!

I think it’s quite insulting and dismissive to say others are unreasonable for ltb or going nc, the vast majority of people who do this are at the end of their tether and haven’t made the decision lightly.

I do have one amusing story though as while ex and I generally got on ok we’re both from big families (I’m eldest of 3 but also a shit ton of cousins, he’s youngest of 4) so if we did disagree it could get loud, but that was also partly as both of us when angry/irritated tend to become very mobile/look for things to physically do to use up that energy so we’d be arguing across 2-3 rooms apart. Our rows were rarely about anything serious, they were usually about bad habits each of us had that irritated the other but every so often we’d have a point of “omg why can’t you stop doing this!” (Eg him putting dirty laundry NEXT to the basket rather than in it, me forgetting to turn heating off when leaving the house and wasting fuel/causing house to turn into a sauna! I felt the cold, he was more warm blooded. The usual niggles of living in the same address with anybody) and they tended to flare when the person who “blew up” first was under some other kind of stress, we’d basically bicker loudly, strop off and calm down then more quietly the person who hadn’t blown up first was like “ok, what’s upset you today?” And the real stressor would come out.

At one point we had these VERY smug married ndn, who also were friends with another couple who were also neighbours but not ndn. They used to comment on our rows with a very smug “we never argue, we sit and calmly discuss things if we disagree about something” and their friends were just as dickish! Then one weekend we heard from their house THE most almighty row! I’m talking not just shouting, things were getting thrown, plates smashed the whole bit! At first we couldn’t tell what about and we were just mildly amused that this “perfect” couple were having a row! We got more concerned when things started to get thrown etc and called the relevant people (ex was army and this was an overseas posting so the tendency is to contact army authorities rather than civvy police)

Before MP’s showed up, the husband from the not ndn went storming round to ndn and battering their door and it all got played out on the doorstep so we DID hear what the story was. Couldn’t help it! Turns out husband from ndn couple had been shagging wife from other couple, she got pregnant as a result and it all kicked off! MP’s had to separate the by now physically fighting 2 husbands, they got lifted for the night and the 2 wives who were screaming at each other were told to go back into their own homes and that if they were called out to them fighting they’d be getting held too!

Not so bloody perfect now eh?

So I would caution against smugness too.

LionelRitchieStoleMyNotebook · 28/10/2019 17:48

I think this is so hard to pick apart, I have raised my voice in frustration at DH and he at me, rarely and it's fleeting but we're both quite vocal passionate people. We can however talk things through and support each other and work as a genuine team, neither of us are grudge holders that I couldn't stand. I have a friend who always says oh we never row and never ever raise our voices. No they don't because she does exactly what he wants at all times, and between him and the children her needs have been bottom of the pile for so long she doesn't think she deserves any consideration, and at least overtly doesn't even recognise that, but on a thread like this she'd be saying how calm and peaceful their life is.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 28/10/2019 18:11

For us a bad day would be arguing about something that matters.

We argue a lot, often loudly, always with swearing as we are sweary people, about stuff that doesn't matter, sports, TV shows, whatever but rarely about stuff that does, ie our relationship.

Probably only argued about stuff that matters half a dozen times in the best part of 30 years, but loudly and vociferously debate unimportant stuff on the daily.

PinkGlitter123 · 28/10/2019 18:26

I know someone who says they have the perfect relationship yet they have only been together a year, onky see each other of weekends and always doing fun events. Very easy to be happy in that scenario!

I agree that no relationship is perfect but it shouldn't feel like endless work. And of course there needs to be respect, communication and love if it is going to work long-term

picklemebrains · 28/10/2019 18:31

Just for your sample, not to make a point- in 25 years he has never shouted at me or sworn at me. He has grumbled under his breath and shouted 'Arse' when he's dropped something. I have sworn and raised my voice to him once, totally deliberately, because he was failing to hear something I had said to him several times. He heard, but he didn't listen, and I needed to get him to pay attention to what I was telling him. We've discussed divorcing once.

If you grow up in a dysfunctional home, your boundaries are shot. I have a narc mother, and find it hard to do confrontation- she was the only one ever allowed to be angry.

GorgonzolaTombola · 10/11/2019 12:45

@PinkGlitter123 I know someone who says they have the perfect relationship yet they have only been together a year, onky see each other of weekends and always doing fun events. Very easy to be happy in that scenario!

Bless them Grin Myself and partner have had a terrible year for many reasons beyond our control, but we could control how we are reacting to it better. Methinks some big changes are needed. Wine

OP posts:
PoppetyPing · 10/11/2019 12:48

Been together 6+ yrs not once raised our voice to eachother, sworn in anger (jokingly yes but not when disagreeing), we just talk it out.

PoppetyPing · 10/11/2019 12:49

Just to confirm not sworn to eachother in anger ever

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