To not seek/ facilitate friendships with people very hard to meet up with

[Tautologi]

From a conversation I had today.

I was with a friend and a friend of their’s was there in the cafe too. Friend asked me if I’d seen someone else and I said not really, the amount they cancelled started to upset the kids. Gave an example of how we’d arranged to meet at a distant place for an event, I’d arrived and waited a bit then text to be told they’d just decided to stay in. It was a bit of a final straw.

Friend of friend (fof) sort of giggled a bit and said ‘well... I at least give five minutes notice when I cancel... mostly’. I gave her a funny look and said my child had cried in the carpark when she found out friend had decided to play Lego indoors instead and it was something I found a bit unacceptable to do, but many do it repeatedly. She then got more serious and said she found social things difficult and so did one of her 3 kids which meant they often cancelled last minute (child was present chatting away). I was neutral in tone and just said I find it difficult to maintain friendships where people cancel, as people who do it last minute upset the kids, they’ll be all happy and waiting then I have to say their friend isn’t coming. No warning. It’s also a bit of a grind even if you don’t tell the kids to for example travel to a further park than usual or a different meeting point for no reason, or get a cake or something that isn’t needed. The odd time happens, but when people do it time and time again I personally just find it unworkable.

I left it but she kept bringing it back up after my brief explanation how she felt she had to quite often. I finally said, look, I understand we are different. That’s fine. You will have your like minded people and I will have mine. Made a light hearted comment about time pedants.

Brought it up again. And again, how she isn’t ‘social’. How she needs help to meet up and get out. If everyone was like me what would her kids do. I did then get annoyed and asked if she worked in a job with people and turned up (yes), said she was out now and ‘I’m sorry but I’m not responsible for facilitating other people. I’m sorry if you find it difficult but I find it anxiety inducing that people don’t like me if they suddenly ghost me, stressful to manage the kids and that I miss out often on other things I need to do chasing cancelled meets. For that reason I’ve stopped active attempts to meet up with anyone who cancels for no reason a few times, I won’t ignore contact, but I won’t seek it’.

She was really annoyed at my ‘lack of understanding’, I’d honestly tried to turn the conversation away about 8 times at this point but I did start to get annoyed.

Surely mine is the normal view. That if someone is more than a few times no-showing on you/ the kids, ignoring most texts etc you just stop contacting that person as it doesn’t really seem like they want to be friends? Or that it’s just a big fat effort?

Obviously old friends in need are an exception, I’d not drop a good friend in a time of difficulty.

I get people can be socially anxious etc, but if it’s last minute or complete non shows you have to accept it’s not you make friends? That people also gave their own thoughts, feelings and needs that mean they can’t just provide for you?

So as not to drip feed, I got a bit more hardline as my third is autistic and we use visuals. They want the day planned and struggle with change. If I tell them x is coming and they don’t there’s upset, but if I surprise them it can also cause issues. It’s not my only reason to feel like this, but it adds a layer of difficulty. I’ll be told something like ‘oh Jasmine was so engrossed in her play’ when one of mine is having a meltdown over it. I am a bit worn out, I have 5 kids and not enough time for being mucked around. I’m no social butterfly myself and not over confident or friends with everyone.

Friend who was present does always end up being the helper, seeking people to help. She’s really lovely, and I could see emphasised with her friend. Tbh if anything I think people take advantage of her. So... aibu?

I agree with you OP. I've had to cancel the night before on the rare occasion and still felt awful!

My friend of over 30 years became very flaky in recent years, out of about 10 instances of us arranging to meet up/do something she turned up to one and cancelled the rest at the last minute. She got very stroppy when she cancelled coming to a meal we had booked at the last minute and the rest of us still went! She asked me and another friend if we'd be interested in a reunion of primary school friends, we replied yes and then they went and had it without us. The only thing she actually bothered showing up for was to see a film that SHE desperately wanted to see at the cinema. She has no health problems, definitely no social anxiety, no excuses as far as I know she's just completely self interested. I haven't fallen out with her but I've stopped making any effort to make contact/arrange stuff and not heard from her in more than a year now. I can't be bothered to waste time making childcare arrangements and getting ready to go out to be cancelled on at the last minute.

Yes- and 2 Flaky “friends” actually did this the day before my wedding, which was £100/head, they had partners invited too, and they had rsvp’d yes to already. I have now cut these people off as to me it was a last straw. They were the 2 people I would have guessed would do something like that, and I should’ve listened to that instinct and just not invited them.

YANBU OP.

I got to the point when my children were tiny that I didn’t tell them if I’d asked a friend over or suggested a meet up in a park because so many of their (good!) nursery/school friends were so very flakey and mine would be really disappointed if someone cancelled last minute.

Looking back, I can see that when they were less than 5 or 6 many of the (mostly) mums were really struggling with juggling tiny kids/siblings/work/sleep and just couldn’t face a play date or day out where as we needed to get out and activity to stop me going batshit.

It got better once they got to about 6 and most kids sleep properly.

Apologies if this doesn’t apply to you and your children are older.

I still don’t like flakey people but now pass over them lightly as just peripheral friends and get a better sense that they are flakes when chatting but I do what you do and only meet at their house/event within a group to avoid having my time wasted!

It’s like when people say they are so ‘ocd about housework’ when they aren’t actually suffering from ocd, I think many abuse ‘anxiety’ as a term around arrangements. Sometimes as a get out clause to do what they want. I think that's pretty unsympathetic. But even if she has a real difficulty getting out, and may panic at the last moment, it's not your responsibility to help her, unless you choose to take on that responsibility, which you don't.

Completely agree with you.
If you know you are suffering from anxiety that means you cancel on friends at the last minute then don't make plans that mean your cancellation is going to cause problems - go round to theirs, meet in groups or as part of something else so that your friend isn't relying on you showing up - that sorts out the ones where it's a genuine issue versus the ones that are selfish.

Too many people use anxiety as an excuse. Yeah, some of them may well have diagnosed psychological problems, but mostly not. Everyone gets anxious sometimes. It's normal. It is the same as saying you have OCD when you like things tidy. One is a psychological disorder that adversely affects someone's life - the other is well within the realms of normal. And yes - YANBU to hate being repeatedly let down. It's rude.

I think there are instances where for one reason or another its very difficult to stick to arrangements. I am a single mother and I work very long hours and have sometimes overscheduled in an attempt to keep in touch with old friends and then realised that my child needs more of my time etc. It can be very difficult to be honest.

But as you say most people won't tolerate endless cancellations, particularly of the last minute variety -- and I do think there's no excuse for giving someone five minutes warning of a cancellation.

I've now started to talk to my friends to say that because of x, y and z its quite hard for me to manage the phasing of my social life and think very hard before I commit to things. I will often say I will pencil something in and then confirm nearer the time and make sure I give at least a week's notice if I can't do something. It's not ideal but its better than dropping someone at the last minute.

invariably the people I seem to meet lately are quite affluent, have good jobs involving interactions, otherwise seem seem fine doing various activities and asserting their needs.

I have to admit this made me very uncomfortable. Apart from a small group of very close friends, my wider social circle don't know what happened to me or the issues I have because I don't want their pity. I worked full time in a variety of high pressure jobs (Civil Service/Local Authority) before the arrival of dc1. I'm currently studying for my second degree whilst a sahm with two young children which I started when dc1 was a baby. I sit on multiple committees including one I chair. I have an affluent life style as dh has a very good job plus rich parents. I also have to replace my crockery roughly every 6 months because I live in fear and every time someone or something startles me in the kitchen another bit tends to bite the dust. I haven't had my hair cut professionally in 20 years because I can't stand the thought of someone's fingers in it. Adam's apples make me feel sick to the stomach. The male doctor who delivered dc1 almost got a foot through his. I try very hard to ensure no one knows how damaged I am because it's important for the children to have friends and I think if people actually knew the truth, they'd run a mile.

By the sound of it, your acquaintance is using it as an excuse/rude but please don't judge by appearances.

@Dinosauratemydaffodils genuinely, how do you manage a degree, maintain a lifestyle, sit on multiple committees? I’d not be able to chair a committee? Surely it’s easier to text in advance than do what you do? I’m not being nasty, I just struggle to relate.

I have 5 kids, my house and social life isn’t too hot as a consequence. Finances are precarious (I often turn down stuff for this reason). I don’t think I own more than two matching plates or pieces of cutlery in this house. My asd child finished off a lot of what did match. I am at the point of often being a bit beyond what I can cope with, stay in a fair bit or struggle socially... but I just manage the time I have reasonably. Under book a bit. I don’t think struggling relates to letting people down. I guess my observation has been a certain type often, but not always, feel more comfortable in mucking me around a bit. I’ve had periods of MH difficulties in the past, but I was always super apologetic on the rare timed it hurt others

By the way , I replied I guess because I relate to some of what you said. I’ve only been in a hairdressers twice in my life, never a beauty salon, I avoid the gp as I really can’t deal with it. I’ve struggled around birth. I had a MH diagnosis, I do think despite this though there is locally to me a certain type of woman who has a different approach. Very assertively stating their needs and don’t apologising at all. I can’t relate to it

genuinely, how do you manage a degree, maintain a lifestyle, sit on multiple committees?

Mental health issues manifest differently across different people.
But for me because what's the alternative? I'm afraid at home as well as everywhere else so I might as well be doing something productive plus once dc2 starts preschool in 2 years time I want to go back to work and need things to put on my cv. I've had lots of therapy most recently 18 months of pyschotherapy on the NHS which ended around 6 months ago. None of it has fixed me. I need very little sleep which is lucky because I don't get much but allows me to get a lot done at night. Virtually all my studying for example is done once the children are in bed.

I used to chair the school debating team in my final year and have won prizes for public speaking both at school and University. My first Civil Service job used to involve carrying out serious and in depth interviews as well so chairing a meeting full of people for me is easier than saying getting my hair cut because the first is familiar, the second is triggering.

Ultimately though if I keep busy, I have less time/more ammunition to take on the critical little voices screaming in my head. I'm not stupid, people do like me, do value me and so on. I'm hoping one day I'll actually believe it and feel that I deserve my life now.

I guess my observation has been a certain type often, but not always, feel more comfortable in mucking me around a bit

Can I ask do they do it others? If they are consistent I'd maybe be a bit understanding but if they aren't...I wouldn't.

I know they do it to a few others, but I don’t think consistently to everyone they know. There is some level of categorising people as having ‘important time’.

I have a friend like this and I agree op, it's shitty and I've started to not bother messaging her to arrange the meet up. When she mentions it I internally say "Ffs...not again!" She's just so flakey and is always at least 30 minutes late.

I have anxiety and some days are better than others but I still don't do this to people. If anything I force myself to stick to it and feel ten times better afterwards that I didn't let it "win" and end up having a lovely time.

I appreciate others are often not in that place and it's difficult for them to get there if they are suffering, but my friend doesn't have anxiety, she's just a bit entitled which I think is the case for most in all honesty.

I suppose what I meant is how, if keeping busy helps, would someone only keep busy with certain things? If you can hold to a time, why would you for certain things and not others. I get that some MH needs are different, but surely if you need to be busy and can meet people/ talk publicly/ manage your time why is it exclusively letting down people who’ve arranged meetings socially with you that would be done? I know you can have MH and hold down a career... but most people I know who are at the genuine level of struggling to leave the house struggle to leave the house for anything at all. Not just the unpaid stuff, they tend to have that chaos crossing into multiple areas of their lives.

I used to be a social worker which obviously is a very person centred role and very emotionally draining but I had a 'mask' for work and I would keep all the upset and fear until I was in a safe place to let it out. I had to do that for my job, it was non negotiable. With things that aren't vital to my income I might not feel it necessary to force myself to do it because I would still have to wear the mask but I'd also have to deal with all the other emotional baggage that comes with being socially anxious around people you want to like you. It becomes less worth it, you feel more drained by the social thing because the other person (whether consciously or not) expects more than a stone faced robot who is just doing their job, they expect their friend who should be fun and easy to be around. When you're finding it hard to be around yourself it seems ludicrous that others won't also find you hard work. For me, at least, the issues behind the issues are quite complicated?

if keeping busy helps, would someone only keep busy with certain things? If you can hold to a time, why would you for certain things and not others.

I would say it's prioritisation if that's the case. I make more effort for the people I value not less.

I'm one of those people that doesn't want to go out and feels like cancelling at the very last minute. I get a strong feeling of dread when I am getting ready to go.
I realised when I was 8 that it wasn't good to give in to it, and I make myself go out. I've never regretted doing that. As a parent, I would think I was setting a bad example to my kids if I kept cancelling, or let them do it. I do sometimes wonder if its a form of agoraphobia.

I agree with you. I have friends like this and it's so irritating. Their time is no more important than yours. I get that occasionally things can crop up but when it's the same people doing the same thing time and time again it just becomes too much. I have a friend who has repeatedly turned up late or cancelled last minute for various things for many years. Now I've started declining invitations she is peeved at me for becoming distance 😂

I would be understanding of a friend who rang and said they really couldn't face going out,if it wasn't every time we planned to meet.
I've been driven up the wall by one particular friend who would always text "running late" - fine,but the reason she was running late was because knowing we had planned to meet at a particular time she had decided to shop,or get her children's hair cut,or whatever beforehand, with not enough time to do that.. So I am waiting at home like a mug trying to keep my children going as they are excited about their friends coming...and not doing the stuff I could have been doing if she'd said at the beginning she'd come an hour later....

The thing is, arranging to spend time with a friend should be a thing that makes you feel good. If you know that someone is going to cancel at the last minute, then that won’t feel great.

I've backed off from a close friend who is like this. I've completely given up being the one to make arrangements or suggest meet ups. She does fairly regularly contact asking me to meet up, but each time I've said yes, she's then gone silent on me. Then a few days later I get another message saying she really wants to meet up. I don't actually know what she wants from the situation and I just don't have the time or energy to make arrangement after arrangement, on the off-chance that she manages to make it to one every now and again.

@Perpetuallyperplexed27 I had that recently! I simply stopped texting someone as they cancelled 70-80% and I was doing all the contacting (seemed like a hint...) and I saw them in the first time for ages. She kept dropping guilt trippy comments about not seeing us, asking about other friends we see then saying her child missed mine and ‘well our social circle I guess is smaller’. That wasn’t anxiety or a claim to it though, just kept doing better offers.

@Dinosauratemydaffodils that’s exactly it, it boils down to meeting me being way at the bottom of priorities over anything from deciding to book a Sainsbury’s delivery to a better offer and not bothering to say.