why cant illegal schools just be shut down???

[staydazzling]

i was watching Victoria Derbyshire this morning, and although i appreciate i dont know enough about the subject to fully understand the law, but surely taking action against these places in very much inthe public interest, plus a lot of teachers in these places don't have DBS's, aibu to wonder why they can't be dealt with?

Because successive Tory governments have cut all the resources from any and every enforcer

It could, but since what they are now doing is not illegal (because it will be less than 18 hours a week), it won't be.

Religion.

Could this be approached from the angle of the parents' responsibility? This woman argues that the school doesn't teach full time. Does it follow from there that the pupils are not in full time education? Or have I missed a trick?

I wouldn't normally advocate prosecuting parents. But these children are attending these schools with the parents' consent - and in this case at least the school could not operate without the parents' funds.

But yes I agree that it's ridiculous that there seem to be no powers to close down illegal schools.

In my area there are a couple of so called illegal schools that are actually small residential homes for children in care where the children are being educated on site but they are not properly registered as a school!

I have in the past raised concerns about a dance school run by people from a different culture/ethos but they pretent to only provide post 16 education and only part time classes for under 16's. I know in the past they encouraged at least one child to leave their normal school and go and live with a teacher to be educated and they don't seem to care about wellbeing.

One reason might be fear of accusations of racism, as a lot if these schools are run by people of ethnic backgrounds other than White British.

OMG comefromaway that sounds like grooming! terrifying. Yes I agree MythicalBiologicalFennel, you have to question wht parents would be so adamant to deintergrate their child to such a degree and for what purpose,

Does it follow from there that the pupils are not in full time education? Or have I missed a trick?

You can be home schooled part time. Your education doesn't all have to happen in the same place.

Loopholes I guess. I can’t help but wonder what type of parent wants to send their kids to a ‘school’ like that? I remember there was a scandal a few years back of religious schools in north London where kids were so cut off from British culture and society that some couldn’t speak English, had very little education beyond religious instruction and were just so ill equipped for the real word.

I’m behind the times with this. Why are they illegal?

I’m behind the times with this. Why are they illegal?

They are legally required to be registered with Ofsted if they meets certain criteria (below). These schools are not registered and Ofsted won't register them as they don't meet the independent schools standards for registration.

An independent school is defined as any school at which full-time education is provided for five or more pupils of compulsory school age, or for one or more such pupils with an EHC plan or a statement of special educational needs or who is “looked after” by a local authority, and is not a school maintained by a local authority or a non-maintained special school.

There was a really thorough report on this on Radio 4 this morning - 8.30ish, not sure if you can get it on catch up. Interesting stuff!

You really need to ask?

@winteriscomingfast Does that not mean that a home educating family with 5 children (or one with an EHCP) could be found to be running an illegal school?

An independent school is defined as any school at which full-time education is provided for five or more pupils of compulsory school age, or for one or more such pupils with an EHC plan or a statement of special educational needs or who is “looked after” by a local authority, and is not a school maintained by a local authority or a non-maintained special school.

But this is what I am asking: if they are not full time educational establishments, are they illegal?

The trouble is, if you don't define a school as full time education, where do you draw the line?

I run a small GCSE maths group. I often have six attendees, so on that basis it would be a school. It's clearly not a school because I do it for an hour, one evening a week. It's affordable extra maths tutoring for children who get their main tuition elsewhere. However, I do have a couple of home educated children come along. If I did it twice, three times a week in the run up to GCSEs, I'm still a private tutor and not a school. It's a hugely beneficial group that regularly sees its participants get much higher grades than predicted. It attracts the kind of families who could not afford an hour's one-to-one tuition.

Similarly, my girls were home educated, one through secondary and one through much of primary too. They used to go to a home ed centre a morning a week to do classes in science and English. They could have done more but this centre has had to cut its hours for fear of being labelled a school. The teachers are volunteers interested in their subject, no more. It's really nothing like a school. You can come if you want, not if you don't, decide week by week. Classes cost only a nominal fee of a pound or two because they only cover the cost of hiring the premises and no more. My younger daughter did Physics and Chemistry there and because of two very inspirational volunteers who were retired professors in their subjects, she is now at university herself doing a Masters in Physics.

We have to be very careful that in tightening any regulations we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We also have to be more careful about the questions we ask. If these schools aren’t actually illegal, it’s a straw man to ask why we can’t shut down illegal schools. If you think they ought to be illegal (and aren’t) that is a different question.

I read somewhere yesterday that essentially no one expected these ‘illegal schools’ to appear and so currently there’s no proper legislation and law to deal with them properly.

That will be due to religion then and our inability to enforce our countries laws in case we upset anyone

i think seaweedandmarching bands people are more concerned with illegal schools that appear to religiously doctrinate and teach misogynistic timetables, it would be sad if programs like yours were affected as its clearly very different.

staydazzling

I don’t have a programme. I was just commenting on the issue of legal versus wish it were illegal.

The problem is that parents are aiding the school, it's really hard to enforce laws that are not being respected by the parents

And I’m guessing here - but aren’t the girls most likely to be missing out on education here with religious schools?

@LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Not with orthodox Jewish schools. My understanding is that they tend towards religious teaching only for boys from 13 onwards, but the same doesn't apply to girls.

Yes - in some groups the boys are supposed to spend their lives contemplating the higher things (eternal students) in life whilst the women support them.