Genuinely don’t know if IABU - PIL/SIL

[ToxicSIL]

I have name changed for this as it could be quite outing.

My SIL is very toxic to the point we have stopped having contact with her to protect our children. If we didn’t have children we would likely continue to see her as MIL isn’t in the best health. MIL is not happy with us having no contact but we truly believe it’s for the best.

I believe SIL probably has narcissistic personality disorder. She belittles DH and MIL to make herself feel better about her own insecurities despite projecting a very independent, confident and self assured image. She goes out of her way to cause a rift between MIL and DH and it is allowed to happen because it has been the norm for the last 25 years.

I’ll be honest that I do judge MIL regarding the situation. I feel she could end it by standing up to SIL and calling her out on her behaviour. But she doesn’t and actually refuses to discuss it or get involved in it. Frequently PIL talk about a personality clash which it really isn’t. We could tolerate that. So SIL holds this power over MIL and MIL allows it. She has previously told me she is scared of SIL.

MIL has always done a lot in terms of childcare for SIL. SIL hasn’t had anyone else to help out but she has had help over and above what MIL tells us she is comfortable doing. But obviously that is her choice.

I don’t expect free childcare from anyone but what hurts me is that MIL is much closer to her other grandchildren because of the amount of time she spends with them. I see this upset my husband and he also gets upset with SIL as if the children are sick she won’t make alternative arrangements so MIL doesn’t catch it. She expects MIL to do what she agreed to regardless of the state of the children.

Due to SIL’s youngest starting school in September, PIL offered to have our children for one afternoon a week. This is from 1.30pm until around 3pm when DH gets home. It’s also an afternoon where DS has an activity. PIL agreed to stay until 4.45pm when DH returns so we don’t have to take the younger one out and they can nap if they need to.

I’m very grateful for the help and glad they are spending some time mainly with the younger one.

They are going on holiday for two weeks so won’t be able to help. That’s fine no problem at all we can make alternative arrangements. But today have let us know they can only do the week before their holiday until 4pm. This also happens to be SIL’s birthday so they are no doubt going to see her.

I understand they want to see their daughter on her birthday but I feel they made the commitment to us first and they know that leaving by that time will mean the youngest will have to go to the activity which will be a nightmare for DH.

I know we are lucky and perhaps I shouldn’t even be upset by this but I know they would never do this to SIL. They would never dare break a childcare commitment to her and leave her in the lurch.

Part of me wonders if she has actually done this on purpose as she’s always so keen to prove to DH that she comes first but it’s my children suffering with not getting to spend time with their grandparents.

I really want to just tell DH to tell them not to worry about that date and make alternative arrangements anyway. I feel like this would send the message to SIL that her actions won’t bother us. I can just foresee there being an argument between DH and PIL - I will be at work - over the whole situation and I just want to avoid any conflict and particularly my children seeing it.

AIBU? What would you think or do?

So sorry it’s so long but didn’t want to drip feed.

I think you are letting your judgement of SIL over ride your rational response here.

DH can take both children to the activity. It won't be easy but there is no childcare emergency.

Thanks for your response @teachermaths

You’re right there is no childcare issue but it makes me feel like SIL is continuing to exert her power and manipulation over my DH’s/children’s time with his parents.

I can’t help but think it’s been done purposefully because she otherwise has the weekend to see them and sees them in the week when MIL is doing her childcare.

I'd take it that with you they feel comfortable telling you their boundaries and what they're happy doing because you respect them. They sound bullied by SiL, and you getting pissed off at the situation isn't going to help. They probably know she will kick off if they dont see her on her birthday and are scared of her reaction and don't want the hassle. This will be a long engrained dynamic between them, I honestly dont think you can change it, and any change you make eg making alternative arrangements will just mean they spend less time with your kids

@GettingABitDesperateNow yes it’s exactly that. Do you have some experience?

A ‘ long engrained dynamic ’ is exactly what it is and no I know I won’t change it and I don’t feel it’s my role to try.

It’s merely the fact SIL will know they left us early, probably engineered the situation to be that way and will feel she has one over us.

I know I shouldn’t let it bother me but it really does. I feel so sorry for DH who has just had to suck it all up all his life with parents who haven’t protected him from it and now seem to be doing the same to our children.

TBH you’re giving the whole situation far too much headspace. It’s just the one day and although it might make things a bit more difficult for your DH, he will manage. A lot of mums are faced with having to drag siblings along to activities on a daily basis. I don’t think your annoyance is directed at your DCs having to spend less time with GPs, but more about the power battle going on between you and your sil. Your PIL are not going to change so you just need to let it go.

SIL is selfish and manipulative - she has shown you who she is, not going to change. MIL is trying to keep the peace and hasn't clocked that if you stay neutral in this type of dynamic, you actually empower the narcissist. Again, she is not going to change either.

For your and DH own sanity, work out what your boundaries are and stick to them. Do not engage with the drama, do not give it any headspace. Re the childcare issue, a nice flat neutral response "oh that's a shame, have a lovely holiday and look forward to hearing about it when you get back" for example.

Don't go digging for manipulation and lies, take everything at face value and respond very simplistically. Disengage basically. It's the only way to keep your sanity.

Clearly there are deep seated issues here but in terms of the issue re: the week before their holiday specifically: YABU.

Many people have to take other siblings to activities. In your position I would not be putting a sick woman in a position of having to choose.
Given your post you won't win.
Which will only piss you off more.
Dh needs to just manage his own dc sorry.

I definitely would be inclined to believe that they are just more comfortable making the odd adjustment with you and your DH because you have some mutual respect of a sort where as that doesn't exist with the SIL.

Until recently I was the sibling who wasn't given a shred of respect. It's taken a lot for that to change. But I'm also the only sibling who has had any help with my kids, my sibling isn't as near and they've not allowed a relationship to be fostered between my DNs and my DPs.

SIL sounds manipulative and you sound like someone who has had to deal with gas lighting, manipulation etc - you're not sure where the land lies and if it's you or her. That's what these people do.

I'm sorry your PIL are scared of her, that's shocking to think - my DPs aren't scared of my DB, but they walk on eggshells when he does make contact.

Your PIL need to grow backbones but reading so much mumsnet this last year has shown me that so many of us fear rocking the boat.

Thank you to all of you who have responded.

You’re all right. I will let it go.

It’s hard to watch DH go through it but he has just disengaged and I clearly need to follow suit.

Thank you and to those who have experienced it.

OP I understand how upset you are over SIL and her behaviour.The only thing I can say is it might appear that she is controlling and always has the upper hand and gets her way every time but I think she must be an awful person with very deep issues.She is not winning in this situation.I would reverse your thinking totally.It sounds to me like she is a bit clueless and dim to be honest.If she has to have so much support at the cost of everyone else then she is hardly winning at life is she?!
I would hazard a guess that your inlaws are very proud of you and your husband for being strong,successful independant adults who are more than capable of running their lives whilst the SIL is frankly useless who has to have so much help.Although unfair the inlaws motives for them being satisfied with being so manipulated by SIL is because they know her inside and outside as a needy.pathetic woman who would just fall to bits and not cope without them.Thats probably the reality of it I would guess.The inlaws might have an agenda for doing this beyond what you assume.They maybe worried that if they weren;t there then the kids would suffer maybe? I know grandparents who are run ragged by demands placed upon them and they do it not out of being manipulated but out of a misplaced duty.You and your husband sound to me like you have a handle on life and the SIL seems totally inept at parenting and at life manangement! I would feel sorry for your inlaws if they feel like this.SIL sounds a loser on all fronts to me! Funnily enough though when you look at it from this angle the person you thought was winning i e SIL is actually loosing out.She has no respect from you ...you know what she is and she will know that too.And your inlaws have no life or time to spare for having to give so much to her,They are loosing too and they will know it I promise you and it wont sit comfortably with them,
I would carry on as you are and just think maybe about how pathetic SIL is ..cos she really sounds it to me. Just my take on the situation really...

You also need to separate childcare with a relationship with grandchildren.

Aside from childcare, what other things do you do as a family to foster relationships between grandparents and children?

@Sallycinammonbangsthedruminthe

Thank you for your post. Another one who has it bang on!

I do feel desperately sorry for SIL and as you said recognise that she has some deep rooted issues. It’s very sad to have watched her do things and try to be a certain person just for the adoration and not because it’s what she actually wants IYSWIM. I think it’s taken me a long time to recognise what she is and for a long time I virtually ‘made’ my husband see his family and told him to suck it up for his mum and the kids.

I have previously suggested to her that she is unhappy and takes it out on others and suggested she tries CBT or counselling. She just ignored my text.

She separated from her husband a couple of years ago and I know MIL does what she does for the children because she feels so sad for them ‘coming from a broken home’. But she also did a lot before SIL and BIL separated and I know this hurts my husband as he sees it as favouritism.

I could go on and on about things I now recognise factor into the whole mess, such as my parents relationship with my children, our relationship with BIL etc etc.

I think maybe it’s because this has all dawned on me in the last year so is relatively fresh whereas my husband has dealt with it all his life so just accepts it for what it is.

@Becles

Yes I realise that. SIL has her kids 50% of the time. She doesn’t appear to like being alone with them so a lot of that time is spent with my PIL.

My DH is not always very organised about arranging with family time. As I said before I was the one who used to push it because I felt it was my duty really. And yes I know this is partly a DH problem but he works in a very demanding job with shifts and overtime and I guess it’s just not up there as his main priority.

We do see them more than just the one day a week but to be honest the atmosphere can get so frosty is almost prefer to avoid it. MIL can tend to play the victim and sits there all forlorn that her children won’t make the effort for her without actually seeing the bigger picture. It boils my blood so I suggest to DH less and less that we arrange things with them. TBH I wonder if he also feels the same sometimes because I often find out he has had cross words with his parents and they haven’t spoken for a week or two after the event.

I don’t want a bad relationship with PIL but I feel like I’ve been the one driving it and I can’t do that anymore. But my kids adore PIL and I know they love my kids but I’m so worried that soon we will get questions about why their cousins spend so much more time with them.

I’m even more conflicted because my only sister died when we were teenagers. I have a lot of unresolved grief and dealing with family drama beings a lot of it to the surface. Perhaps I should get back to counselling myself to try to work through it.

I don;t think your grief is impounding your way of thinking OP.I think you are just so disgusted with the situation and the unfairness of it all for your own family is coming to the front.You don;t have to engage with it,you know! Your husband might seem weak maybe for not putting them right but that is misplaced anger I think.I think your husband sounds very wise to me,He appears to notice the situation and knows nothing he says or does will alter it so he seems to have decided there are more important things to worry about than his sister and he is right..his way of dealing with it is to focus on things he can do positively like look after you and your children and focus on being a good husband.He isnt weak he is sensible in his approach I think,he sounds like a loving caring man who concentrates on his family. No amount of anything will alter this situation with Sil so I think you do have to refocus on what is right for your family and more or less plan for sorting out yourselves.If you DH and your children stick together and remain as close as possible it won;t matter,you will see it for what it is.Would it be possible to invite the inlaws for a day out or maybe sunday lunch or round for dinner one night..if you do it with a certain amount of flexibility so as not to try to pressure them and sort of try to work round their commitments (unfair on you I know and i do know it shouldnt have to be this way) but maybe if you can do that..offer open ended invitations with no strings then maybe they may be more forthcoming in making relationships with your family better? If this does happen and they spare the time to come I wouldnt even ask what they have been doing or anything about SiL .focus on your relationship with them ..you might be surprised to find it may work.Your home could be a refuge for them unintentionally when they need a break from their own daughter....then you win! Then you get a mature honest relationship with inlaws totally seperate from SIl that you can cherish.