Employed by my friend as her nanny.

[Wagamama5]

My best friend, Let’s call her C, has recently employed me as her nanny. I previously worked in a nursery and was very unhappy. I was a nanny years ago and absolutely loved it so when I was offered the job I really wanted to accept it, however as we were best friends I was hesitant.

I was really worried about it affecting our friendship as money conversations are always really awkward so I didn’t accept the job straight away, but after being persuaded by C I accepted the job. In order to stop any future issues arising we made sure a proper contract was drawn up and signed, plus we spoke about everything including money, duties, holidays etc just to make sure we were both on the same page. Everything is above board and all tax and NI contributions are sorted (before anyone asks).

C and her husband have both just started new jobs. C doesn’t like nursery environments hence why she decided to employ a nanny instead, plus with three children it actually works out cheaper. I’m OFSTED registered so C also receives help towards the costs just as she would in a nursery setting.

Anyway, (bare with me, this is relevant) I am contracted to work 28hrs per week over 3 days between Monday-Friday. C works 3 days a week on a shift basis and her husband works FT Monday-Friday.
C gets her rota from work two weeks in advance and then let’s me know what days she needs me to work. I normally work my three full days however if C is working on a weekend then I only work two days as dad is home on the weekends. (This is their choice, I have always offered to work my three full days so C can have her day off to herself or do as she pleases however she wants to spend time with the kids which is fair enough).

I am always paid for 28hrs regardless of wether I work them or not and we agreed not to bank hours as I felt it would only benefit the parents and not myself (learnt from past experiences).

C understands that once she has confirmed which days she needs me to work each week then I am free to do as I please on my days off including taking work from other families. I have explained I am happy to work extra days if I have no other plans but that it would need to be paid as extra. This issue arose as two weeks ago she wanted me to work four days at the same rate of pay, i.e split 28hrs over four days instead. I did not agree to it and it was left at that.

I am really enjoying the job and I love the kids however a couple of issues have started to appear which is making me wonder wether this arrangement is going to work or not. Here they are -

1. The night before I was due to start work, C explained her starting date for her job had been pushed back and I did not need to start work until three days later. I was under the impression I would still be paid for the full 28hrs regardless as per the contract however I was only paid for the work I did at the end of the week. I was upset about this and explained to C that I felt it was unfair of her to cut my hours that week as it wasn’t my fault her start date was pushed back and that I was ready and willing to work. She did apologise however never rectified the payment. I decided to let it go but It made me feel uneasy. Since then C has agreed to pay me for the full hours regardless of wether I work them or not.

1. After my first week, C explained to me that she was still going to submit the child care claim stating I had worked 28hrs that week. When I spoke to her about it and said I didn’t realise she was going to pay me for the full hours that week (as stated above) she explained she wasn’t. In fact, C wanted to claim the full 28hrs from UC, put it through payroll as that but then have me transfer £70 back to her account. I told her I wasn’t prepared to do that, as I would then pay more tax and NI on money I hadn’t actually earned. She seemed disappointed by it but we haven’t spoken about it since. I have to admit, it has made me feel quite angry as she obviously knew I would pay extra tax on money she would then pocket. I also said that the registration number (which I pay for every year) isn’t a way for parents to make extra money, it’s there for them to get help towards the costs to pay the child care provider.

1. C keeps asking me to work extra hours at very short notice. For example - I popped over there today for a cuppa and a chat. I had pretty much spent the whole day with her and as I was about to leave she said “oh are you okay to work a few hours tomorrow by the way?”. I explained to C I had already made plans with another friend so couldn’t. C understood but I think she was disappointed and it did feel very awkward afterwards. I was confused as to why she was asking me to work an extra day as we had already agreed that I would only work three days a week as per the contract and if she wanted me to work an extra day she would need to pay it as extra time worked. C did not say she would pay the extra. As I am already booked to work Wednesday-Friday this week I wasn’t happy to work four days for the same rate of pay (as already explained) so declined. If C had maybe said “oh you can have Friday off instead if you want”, I may have agreed and possibly cancelled my plans, but she didn’t.

1. With the above example, I feel I cannot plan my life. It has happened around three times now and it is making me feel uncomfortable. I feel C thinks I am being awkward but she does not pay me to be on call therefor I don’t think I should be. She is my best friend and I love her but, I want our friendship and the work side to be kept separate (if possible). It is getting to the point where I don’t even want to pop around there on my day off anymore as I know the conversation will defer to work chat and that she may even possibly ask me to work on my day off.

I think C wants our work arrangement to be more relaxed, flexible etc than most work places which I do too but to an extent. I appreciate, in any job there is give and take and I would always be there for her and help her out if she needed me, but I have a life too.

I thought that drawing up the contract and chatting about everything beforehand would have prevented any of these issues arising, but there seems to be a new problem every week. As I say, I love the job and am so happy I’m finally in a role I enjoy but if I have to choose between our friendship and the job then our friendship will always come first. She means too much to me to fall out over something like this. I would rather find a new job and keep our friendship, but if we can make it work where both of us are happy then of course I would prefer that instead.

I was thinking about asking her for a chat and explaining all of these issues, but I just wanted to see if I was being unreasonable first. Am I? Do I need to be more flexible?

Can this arrangement between two friends actually work?

If anyone has any advice I would be really grateful! Thanks

Was your contract for 3 days or 28hours op?
That is helpful if you don't want to work the fourth.

Although it is harder with a friend I think you need to start saying you are busy on short notice say requests, start some other work/new hobbies. If you stay breezy and regretful then she will hopefully start to understand the state of play and you will settle into it

Pretty at the PP who was furious at her nanny wanting everything to go through the books, as if tax evasion were some kind of moral right

Honestly, I would be looking around for a new job. I don't think this one will work long-term. I'm guessing there's a combination of unrealistic expectations, self-absorption (esp if you don't have children, she may be seeing only her own struggles to juggle everything and just assuming you can be flexible) and a perhaps unconscious attempt to use your friendship to push the boundaries at work here.

I agree that working for a friend was probably a really bad idea, and it sounds as if she's been the pushier one from the start (pushing you into taking the job).

Pretty shock at the PP who was furious at her nanny wanting everything to go through the books, as if tax evasion were some kind of moral right hmm

I’m going to assume youve never had a nanny? I think most people feel annoyed when they employ a nanny (the most expensive form of childcare, but the only form of childcare that works for some jobs -like OPs) that they are being taxed twice . My income is taxed and then we pay tax again to employ a nanny. For a nanny with a net pay of £11/hr the cost to the employer is £15-16 by the time you’ve added tax, NI and pension. And I’ve already paid tax once. It was £30-60/month, it involved a whole heap of extra paperwork (my time- she never added up her hours to tell me how much I owed her and she never submitted it to the payroll company, despite being asked) and I’ve honestly never met anyone else who pays their nanny’s overtime through the books. It was insult to injury after she was late all the time, so if we’d taken her lateness into account, she probably wouldn’t have been due very much overtime. And yes, all of that was my fault for not managing her properly, but Therein lies the problem of employing someone you know.
I’m going to assume all the pp jumping on the tax comment have never ever paid anyone in cash?

I think this is a non workable situation TBH! Working for a friend is fraught with problems .I think if you value your friendship then it would be best to find another job elsewhere

@shoebedobedobedobedoo this is a genuine question as I’ve never employed a nanny, but how does that equate to double taxation for you? You pay tax and NI on your gross salary and your nanny pays it on hers.

this is a genuine question as I’ve never employed a nanny, but how does that equate to double taxation for you? You pay tax and NI on your gross salary and your nanny pays it on hers.

Indeed. It's more visible than the fact that I pay my childminder out of my taxed income and then she pays tax on what I pay her, but it isn't actually different.

I recognise that if you employ a nanny you also have to pay employer's NI, but again that's no different to paying a nursery, who also pay that out of the money you pay (and factor it into the fees), it's just much more obvious (and admittedly more hassle) to the person paying it.

I may have read this the wrong way - but if there have been weeks where you've only worked 2 days as her third working day has been a Saturday, and you've agreed that you'd have some give and take with hours, is it not reasonable to do 4 days another week?

That aside - I've been the boss and employed a friend - neither the working arrangement nor the friendship survived and I wouldn't ever do it again.

Didn't mean too drip feed!) but she asked me to work tomorrow for a few hours because she wanted to pop to the shops without having to drag the kids around with her. I really wouldn't class that as an emergency. Don’t really get why this is an issue- presumably if you didn’t have extra work on you might be glad of those extra hours, or if not you can just say no? As long as she doesn’t expect it, I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

shoebedobedobedobedoo. The same can be said for every employer, you are viewing it wrong. Everyone pays tax, employees/employers. Did you agree to a gross rate of pay or what your nanny would take home? If you agreed the take home that is you fault for not understanding

Should your employer not pay your tax as they are paying their own tax?

Sorry I find your rational wrong and misguided.

Sounds to me as if despite the best of intentions on both sides you're at risk of sliding towards a sort of zero-hours contract situation, where she expects you to work when she needs you and feels she has the right to change your hours and days to suit her. I understand your discomfort and I can imagine she knows her desire for complete flexibility is unreasonable but wants it anyway.

I can't see your friendship and the job surviving. I would step out now and find another job if you value your friendship. IME mixing work and personal life is inevitably a disaster.

I’m going to assume youve never had a nanny

And I’m going to assume you’ve never employed someone before.

@joaninthesun An Employer will pay ER NIC at a rate of 13.8% on an employees gross wage over a certain (very low) threshold so it's not quite as simple as only the EE suffering tax!

RoseGoldEagle - yes but they wouldn't be paid as extra hours. I would just maybe work a shorter day on the Friday or something but as stated before I only work three days a week which is what was agreed before I started working for her

*Margotsdevil - there is give and take with the hours but that is meant with the days I will work. Once she has chosen the days she needs me to work that week, then that's that. Obviously if she needs me to work extra on another day and I have no plans that's fine, but she doesn't want to actually pay me for the extra hours worked.

Again, I would be happy to discuss the working hours with her but the fact is she hasn't even brought it up. She has just changed my working hours without even letting me know. Surely in most jobs if your working hours change you are notified of it first?

We agreed not to bank hours so if I were to work two days then four that is technically what we would be doing. I only see the parents benefiting from that arrangement as well unfortunately. I have always offered to work the third day whilst C is off but she doesn't want me to, which is her choice but I don't see why I should have to suffer because of it.

As stated before, we have a contract which states I work three days. If she wants to change it, that's fine but she needs to have a proper chat with me about it first. Not just change it and hope I don't notice.

As far as I can remember I have always kept to my end of the deal, I.e remained available each week for her to choose what days she needs me before accepting any other work etc but she seems to want to keep adding little things in and changing the goal posts which I don't think is fair (at least until she's spoken to me about it first)*

Sorry didn't mean to write that all in bold

I’m going to assume all the pp jumping on the tax comment have never ever paid anyone in cash

Not an employee, no. Because that is illegal. I can't believe you think it's normal.

Totally different to pay someone self-employed like a cleaner in cash.

itsboiledeggsagain - sorry, I somehow missed your comment!

It saids in my contract that "the nanny will be required to work 28hrs over three days per between Monday to Friday".

I made sure it was written that way in order to prevent any confusion in the future!

I’ve read the whole thread and I still don’t see the issue. She keeps asking if you want to do more shifts and you keep saying no. That’s fine isn’t it? Or do you not want her to ask? If so just say “no and please don’t ask me again” next time.

Museummum - she wants me to do extra shifts but not pay me thats the issue I'm facing. If she was happy to pay the extra then there wouldn't be a problem.

I'm going to ask her for a chat tomorrow and see what her expectations are. If we can't come to some sort of agreement (which I thought we already had via the contract) then I may need to look for another job to salvage our friendship.

RoseGoldEagle - yes but they wouldn't be paid as extra hours. I would just maybe work a shorter day on the Friday or something but as stated before I only work three days a week which is what was agreed before I started working for her

Ah I see, sorry I misunderstood. In that case I completely see your point, and obviously that isn’t what you originally agreed. I guess all you can do is sit down and talk it through with her, it could just be teething problems and will settle down once you’ve cleared the air, if not I’d be thinking about finding another nannying job. As others have said, she’s very lucky to have someone like you who is willing to change days depending on her shifts, so hopefully she’ll realise this and start being a bit more reasonable!

Obviously you can't work three days worth of hours over four days, as then you're tying up a fourth day when you could work elsewhere.

Maybe ask her if she needs to hire you for a fourth day? You can say you've noticed that she has been asking if you're free to work on a fourth day, and that while you're happy to continue working three days a week you would also be willing to do a regular fourth day for her if she has found she needs it?

There's also really no harm in saying that you only work full days, as otherwise it prevents you from taking full days of work from other people!

I thought I would update this thread (if anyone is interested).

Well, you were right! It's all ended in disaster and our friendship is effectively over.

On Tuesday night she text me at around 10pm telling me that the hours were going to change again and I would now be working 7:30-6 instead of 8:00-5:30 as per agreed. She wanted me to start these hours the following day so again not very much notice. I agreed to the change as I was planning on speaking to her the following day about these issues anyway.

I was planning on speaking to her on Wednesday morning but when I arrived at the house she'd already left for work and then dad took over in the evening so I never saw her, the same thing happened yesterday.

I was suppose to be working 11-5 today but last night she text me at 9pm asking if I could start at 9am instead (). Although annoying I didn't say anything and just agreed but thought it would be the perfect time to ask for a chat and I said I would come in earlier to speak to her so she could still leave the house on time.

She then started bombarding me with phone calls, texting me and saying she couldn't wait until the morning as it was making her anxious and she wouldn't be able to sleep properly. I said I would of preferred to talk about it face to face as sometimes over text/phone things can be taken the wrong way and I didn't want to say something I might regret. I also told her not to worry as it wasn't anything awful.

She kept phoning me constantly last night whilst I was at home which was really stressing me out. Again I said I really didn't want to talk over the phone about it so she said text me then. Since I didn't really have a choice (she probably wouldn't of left me alone until I did) I text her. She told me I could speak to her about anything and not to feel awkward addressing any issues.

I wrote a text out to her (in the nicest way possible so not to upset her) detailing my issues and I gave examples (just incase she asked me when these things happened). I said at the end of the message that it was nothing to do with children, I loved them but that there were just a few little niggles between us. I said I still wanted to work for her but just hoped we could smooth things over and come to an agreement where we were both happy.

Her response was : "don't bother coming in tomorrow".

She then sent me a very long voice note on whatsapp basically saying that she hadn't done anything wrong, that I wasn't on call and the way I feel is my own fault and not hers When I mentioned about the hours constantly changing she then said "but I've notified you of every change". I said yes but it's always been the night before which isn't very much notice.

She also said that she didn't even need me for 28 hours per week anymore but that she had carried on paying me for the full hours because we were friends. It honestly felt like she wanted me to thank her for this though and that I should of been grateful? When I explained to her that it wasn't my fault that the hours had changed and that the job was offered to me on the basis of working 28 hrs a week she had nothing to say. I didn't feel like I owed her a thank you just because she had followed her contractual agreements.

I was really confused as she'd told me to be honest with her and when I did she took the hump. I said I was sorry if I upset her but obviously I couldn't go on feeling this way. Again I reiterated that I still wanted to work for her but that if she didn't want me as her nanny anymore that was fine. I asked her to let me know as obviously I need to find another job and ASAP.

She didn't respond and then at around 12pm as I was falling to sleep she texted me and asked if she could phone me. I asked her if we could leave it until the morning as I was really tired and tbh I didn't really know what else there was to talk about at this point? She'd made her feelings pretty clear.

She then replied with "well thanks you've totally fucked my job up for me now".

I replied with "I was happy to come in as normal and talk everything over and continue working for you. You've told me not to come in tomorrow so I don't understand how you can accuse me of messing with your job?".

She had no response to that.

I told her I wanted to carry on as normal as again I loved the job but it seemed like she didn't want to compromise. It was basically her way or the high way!

I knew she wouldn't follow through with the contract and give me a months notice but at this point I really have no energy to argue with her about it. I just asked to be paid for the hours that I've worked this week and her response was "of course you will be, I'm not a dickhead" .

She text me this morning and said that she was upset it had affected our friendship. I replied with "but you were the one that's ended the agreement, I was happy to come in as normal so yes because of that it has affected our friendship". She had nothing to say.

She knows full well that I have rent and bills to pay, that I live by myself and have no one else to help me so she has really left me in shit street big time. The least she could of done was followed the proper notice period or at least paid me for it if she didn't want me to work just to tie me over for another month until I can find another job. I don't see how our friendship can ever recover from this as I feel really let down and hurt by what she's done.

Lesson learned, don't work for your friends.

She then replied with "well thanks you've totally fucked my job up for me now".
And she sees no irony there?

OP:

Îf one month's notice / pay is in your contract,then hold her to it !

If not, learn from this and put it in the next contract