Work meeting timing

[SecretServant]

Sorry, this will be long!

I recently (less than a year) started a new job. The management structure is that the team has 1 manager (manager A) for work allocation, work supervision and another (manager B) for HR type stuff (promotion, appraisal, absence booking etc). We all have flexi-time, no “core hours”.

I had an update meeting a couple of weeks ago with manager B, she fed back that I was getting on really well and asked how it was all going from my point of view. I said I was really happy with the tasks but that I found information flow from A really frustrating - he doesn’t really share information with the team unless he absolutely has to, which leaves some work getting done twice, some not at all, and everyone floundering if he’s not in the office to micro-manage. I suggested maybe we could have a weekly team update meeting/chat to try and better share info. B agreed it would be useful and said she’d see what she could set up.

A and B and one other team member choose to come in at 0800 and leave at 1600 everyday. One team member comes in at 1000 and works till 1800. On days when I drop the children to school (I have a lift share) I get in at 0915, otherwise, 0800.

The team update meeting has been set to 0815 on a Monday. It’s one of my drop off days so I can never make it; it doesn’t fit with the normal times 2 other team members choose (flexitime!) either. I spoke to manager B and she said the time was set by manager A “deliberately” and there’s nothing she can do.

I’ve proposed having the meeting at 0930 on a Monday instead, but no, manager A says that’s unacceptable because it will get in the way of meetings. I’ve checked everyone’s diaries and none of us have any programmed meetings it would clash with between now and Christmas.

Manager A apparently believes it’s my choice to have children, if I can’t work around work meetings, then tough. I chose this job because of the flexi-time. Surely if we’re all on flexitime, he can’t just pick meeting times to suit himself? I mean, 0815 is pretty early anyway...

Oh and just to make matters even more interesting, A and B are not in the same reporting chain as each other and are married, to each other....

What now? AIBU to complain higher up about A picking a time that doesn’t fit with half the teams usually pattern or just accept I can’t go to team meetings...

Report it to higher up as his comments are discriminatory

First, put everything in writing, i.e email your manager and say you asked for these meetings because of xyz, but cannot attend at proposed time because of childcare. Suggest the meeting will.be moved to a time when everyone can attend, as it is critical to you doing your job properly.

If nothing changes, go higher with email 'evidence'.

When I worked in an organisation with flexi there were core hours that everyone had to be in for and any meetings that everyone had to attend were held during that time.

Manager A sounds like a bit of an arse - 08.15 while technically doable is hard for a lot of people, with kids or otherwise, simply because of public transport or lack of it. It sounds like he's being awkward because he can.

From what you say, everyone would be in the office between 10 am and 4pm, so it would have been sensible for A to schedule a team meeting at a time when the whole team were there. Anything else just looks like bad management.

Should be setting a meeting so that it is at the time where it will be most effectual. It is called good management. I never schedule team meeting first or last thing for this reason.

I've worked in these kind of matrix organisations before where work allocation and line management are split. Sadly those who allocate work tend to be the people who lack the people skills to be line managers.

Talk to either your line manager or A's manager if it doesn't get resolved soon by further discussion with A. Make sure that you conduct further discussion via email so that it is recorded.

Thanks! I’ve done the email trail already so I’m armed, I’m just having a bit of a wobble.

Other places I’ve worked that have flexitime have either defined core hours or at least defined hours outside which mandatory meetings can’t be scheduled, but there doesn’t seem to be a defined policy here (despite it being civil service - there’s a bloody policy for everything else!).

I’m also wary because from the outside, the team is regarded as successful - from what I’ve seen that’s despite manager A rather than because of. The team is a good bunch and we work hard.

I suspect A is a classic middle manager, the people below him look up and see arsehole, the people above look down and see halo.

I’m wary of stirring up trouble - after all, if I don’t say anything and if I don’t go to the meetings and/or they don’t happen at all, I’m in no worse a situation than now.

But if you do raise the issue then you'll be able to attend the meetings, which surely was your primary aim anyway?

And this manager is being a deliberate tosser, FYI.

What now? AIBU to complain higher up about A picking a time that doesn’t fit with half the teams usually pattern or just accept I can’t go to team meetings...

He's breaking the law, simple as.

His comment was highly discriminatory and inappropriate.

He has reinforced his views by setting meeting times deliberately to prevent employees (invariably women, with childcare responsibilities) from attending, despite having been told about the situation.

Escalate your concerns, via Grievance. If you do not feel able to do it directly with him, go to HR in writing. Important you put all the above facts in your Grievance rather than as isolated incidents. Creates impact!

Crossed with a lot of responses - thanks all who’ve said it’s bad management. I feel better thinking about it like that tbh.

Interestingly he used to be both line and project manager until just before I started when he handed the line management role to his (now) wife. Rumour has it, it was a handy way to get her promotion (and pay increase) but I suspect he’s a bit pissed off that she’s not being as much of his puppet as he had expected.

He clearly feels threatened because you have basically pointed out he isn't doing his job properly and have suggested the solution (team meetings)

I think he doesn't want to facilitate them and so has deliberately made it impossible for the full team to attend. Then he can say - 'That didn't work' and cancel them

I'd definitely question it higher up

The system in place is bonkers. It's obvious this was set up as a mean to punish you for your comments. That's not professional at all, especially as what you said seemed to have a good foundation.

But to report to one manager something that is not working with the other manager, so that this manager has to tell the other, is bound to fail. Add that they are married and frankly, what are the bosses above thinking in setting up such an arrangement!

It would have been much better for you to discuss this issue with manager A in the first place, so that it could have been discussed in a grown up manner, rather than going to mum to complain about mum and have mum tell dad off and tell him what to do.

However, it's not your fault at all, you've followed the rules about reporting. Sadly, this poor management system is now penalising you. Not sure what to do expect trying to have a one to one with Manager A and try to discuss it in an adult way.

I think it's poor management all round to be working for married people. As demonstrated here, the HR person isn't doing their job and pointing out the blatant discrimination by the other manager. If they were independent of each other, this probably would be a non issue as HR would have done their job and protected their employer from a potential discrimination claim.

As for your manager, he's being a tosser. There's no point having a team meeting if half the team aren't there.

Are you times recorded anywhere? Can you back up your email with some evidence showing when people are usually in, and suggest some alternative times that would work better?

Completely agree swingofthings, I should have gone to A, but at the time the responsibility interplay between A and B wasn’t clear at all. I have been asking since I started what the lines are between team leader (B) and project lead (A) but I’ve not had clear answers - until this all blew up and B said that A can basically do what he wants.

I won’t be at the meeting tomorrow. Depending on what happens, I’ll go and see A and B’s boss (with copies of my emails). Even if he forces the meeting to a sensible time, he can’t force A to actually share info though. I suspect the outcome will be that meeting is moved to 1000 for a few weeks, A never turns up because he’s scheduled “unavoidable” meetings for himself and after a few weeks the meeting idea gets shelved.

Meanwhile, I’ve marked my card with A (and probably B) who day-to-day can make life hard in many ways that are really hard to challenge in practice. Sigh. I should never have said anything about bloody meetings.

That is ridiculous. I organise a great many meetings, for a team who are in and out all week (sales) plus on flexible working, and it's just laziness not to be able to find a time that everyone, with a bit of compromise sometimes, can make.

Will someone be taking notes at these meetings that you can look at?

Yes, B will be taking notes apparently. There will only be 3 people in tomorrow’s meeting: A, B and the team member who rents A’s spare room (A and B don’t live together despite being married). I can’t see much being said to be minuted tbh.

I’ve also just been called by the team member (C) who normally works 1000-1800. He wanted to thank me for raising the issue. He’s not long back from a couple of week’s sick leave - which I knew about. He told me it was due to depression/anxiety (which I didn’t know) and he finds coming in and leaving later helps. A and B both know his situation.

A has previously whinged to me that C needs to “get a grip and man up”...

Now I have more of the picture, A really is a very nasty piece of work...

I’m name changing back now and disappearing. Thanks all.

Even if you could all make 0815 on a Monday morning, would you all be in the best frame of mind to contribute?

You made a sensible suggestion and if A was a reasonable human being, it would have been accepted.

A has set this up to fail.

Sounds like a really odd set up at work!

Would c also be willing to email A and ask for the meeting time to be changed? Might be better if there’s two of you, especially as you both have legitimate reasons for why you can’t attend.

It does sound like A is annoyed at your suggestion for a meeting and scheduling it early is a punishment

Nepotism, narcissism and sexism - what's not to hate!

A completely toxic and biased environment where you're set up to fail. You'll never be treated fairly by someone like that I'm afraid.

The "note-taking" could end up being some fabricated Minutes to suit As personal agenda.