To ask for advice about 4yo at risk of exclusion

[FishfingerSandwiches4Tea]

Actually I am being unreasonable as I've posted on SEN but I'm so upset and worried and really need advice.

Basically, ds4 is massively behind socially but doing well in every other area. He either doesn't interact socially at all or will do so totally inappropriately, eg hitting a child when he wants to play. He is very defiant.
Just 4 weeks into term school have asked for a reduced timetable. It's felt that there is an underlying issue but I've been asking for help for 2 years and kept being told he's so young, it will be a phase etc.

How does any diagnosis happen? How long will it take? I've always known there was a problem but been made to feel like I was exaggerating. Now it's really serious. I'm so scared for his future

Diagnosis can take time. Ypu should meet with the school Senco who should explain everything to you including a rough estimate of timelines. You dont have to agree to a reduced timetable but if you can it is a way to support the school. An educational psychologist should come and observe him at school and with you but there arent that many of them and he may not be seen for a while and it is more than a one off diagosis. Sorry you haven't had support before. Make sure they give
you a plan and date for review etc.

These might help OP:

www.autism.org.uk/about/diagnosis.aspx

www.ipsea.org.uk/Pages/Category/get-support

Do you suspect autism or something like adhd?

What month is your child's birthday is it worth pulling him out of school until compulsory school age ? He can go back to preschool if they coped better with him. 4 is so young for school, but if you suspect other issues it will give you more time to get him referred and assessed. I'd go to your doctor.

I meant to say my DS has some issues too and I don't think he'll be ready for school at 4.

Hi Fishfinger I don't have experience of England (I'm in Scotland) so can't be much practical help, just sympathy. My main bit of advice is don't give up - go back to your GP, say the school can't cope and that they have reduced his timetable and ask for him to be referred for assessments. The school should back you up on this. The process that my DS went through (at age 5-ish) was that I went to the GP, then DS sat on a waiting list for several months despite being threatened with exclusion ; then he and I were saw a developmental paediatritian at CAMHS who spent a long time talking to me and did lots of tests and exercises with DS. We also saw a clinical psychologist, and a speech and language therapist (who checked out DS's communication skills not his speech, which is fine!), and the class teacher filled out some questionnaires, and we did too. He was diagnosed with an ASC, given support in school and social skills help, and was able to stay in mainstream. The educational psychologist didn't get involved til after he was diagnosed, but that seems to vary a lot.

It was very scary but my DS did get support at school, he did well academically and gradually improved socially and behaviourally, and he is now doing nicely at university.

Thanks for your replies.

shawshank those links are great, thank you.

wavey I suspect autism.

amaryllis this is amazing to read - so happy that your son is now doing well and at university! That's tremendous after being threatened with exclusion at such a young age, and really gives me hope, thank you.

regifting I don't think he would cope at all well with missing reception and starting in year one, which is my understanding of what would happen if we deferred.

Wanted to add about defiance - with DS it was like steering an oil tanker - he couldn't change direction easily so it took a lot of advance preparation and I had to start a turn very early or he would dig his heels in and then all hell would break loose.

We relied on routine a lot, and picture timetables so DS knew what to expect. I also allowed extra time for DS to process verbal instructions - say it once, pause, say it again with fewer words. "DS, put your coat on, we are going to the park" ... count to three in my head slowly.... "DS, coat". Also "count to three and consequence" worked well because the count gave him time to understand the instruction and shift direction.

And one book I found useful for managing DS was Explosive Child it doesn't rely on any specific diagnosis but some of the strategies worked very well for my DS.

don't think he would cope at all well with missing reception and starting in year one, which is my understanding of what would happen if we deferred.

I thought this had changed now and they would join in reception instead where they'd be the oldest in their year group rather than the youngest.

He should still be on the list for the Health Visiting team as he's under five, they should be able to arrange a referral to paediatrics due to your concerns.

@FishfingerSandwiches4Tea he would not miss reception, you can ask for them to start at 5 in reception. It's called deceleration and your council should have a policy if your child is summer born - April to August. This is only relevant if your child is summer born though.

Who have you been asking for help? Sounds like you need to start reading the riot act. From now on every request, every refusal, every commitment of help must be noted in writing and confirmed with the promisor in a way that provides an audit trail. Registered delivery, tracked, woeks better thwn email imo and copy it to the trust ceo.

His birthday is in June but I'm really not sure. Academically he's fine. I think we'd just be shifting the problem back another year. It's an option to consider, but it's not appealing at the moment

ohtheroses good idea. I'm back to the GP tomorrow (assuming I can get an appointment) so will do that

You might be better off keeping him at school and pushing for assessment and help - call me an old cynic but a reduced timetable or leaving it a year removed the school’s problem without necessarily helping.

Forgot to add, I've asked HV, GP, dietitian, preschool manager. All made me feel I was making a fuss about nothing

Are school applying for an EHCP? You don't need a diagnosis for that. The local authority would do a needs assessment including an Educational Psychologist assessment and that can detail the support he needs to be in school.
IPSEA (link up thread) has good information about the process.

Remember too that the school can't give him a reduced timetable for their benefit. It's only if it is for his benefit. Otherwise it's classed as an unlawful exclusion (I think that's the wording). They do need to support him and put strategies and resources in place to access education.

No one has mentioned applying for an EHCP. I guess it would make sense to have a diagnosis first? Hence asking for a referral to paediatrician.

I just want to get him support ASAP and have a feeling it won't be a quick process

Get a very polite letter into your GP now.

I am desperately in need of help and support for my 4 year old ds. I have drawn my concerns to the attention of the following already but they have been dismissed:

GP: date and nature of concerns
HV: as above
PSM: as above
Dietician: as above.

My ds's school within 4 weeks of him starting in reception have notified me he needs a reduced timetable duento behavioural issues. These are marked, already reported and ignored and are now having a significant impact on my son's school experience and may impact his future.

I shall be grateful if all appropriate referrals are put in place as a matter of urgency, backed up with timeframes and care plan. I wpuld also like to request a carers assessment and be put in tpuch with any independent individuals who may be able to advocate for me.

Copy it to: CCG Clinical lead, Head Teacher, Lead HV person, director of LA children's Services.

I am sorry you arengoing through this. It sucks and these people, imo, do all within their power to provide asblittle as possible.

I am having the exact same going on with my 4 year old, we had a major incident last week and another child was hurt (blood was drawn).
The school are fantastic though and are working with us to help him.
My son is already under a paediatrician and this has been going on for 3 years (major concerns at his 2 year check).
I can only say to keep on at the school, get an early help record going and get a referral to a paediatrician.

There are two different 'pathways' that run alongside one another.
One is to get a medical diagnosis - whether that is ADHD / ODD / Autism / something else / none of these / a combination of these.
Where I live, your school can do that and your Pre-school could have done that. I am aware that in some areas of the country it has to be a health professional to do that. Also, where they refer to differd in different parts of the Country. Where I live you are referred firstly to a Community Paeditrician who then refers for a multi-disciplinary autism assessment if that is what they suspect or will wait and see you again once 6 or 7 if they are looking at ADHD. In many parts of the country, CAMHS is where you will go for assessment.

Alongside this, you need to be talking with the school about what they are doing to support your ds. Don't necessarily completely discount a reduced timetable to begin with, as long as they have a structured plan of how that will increase - it can be helpful for some children to do a successful 1/2 day rather than an unsuccessful full day. You need to arrange a meeting with the SENCo. Take someone with you and get them to write notes in the meeting... lots of "So, just to be clear, you are saying X, Y, Z" and write it down. (Your partner / Mum / friend / anyone). Keep coming back to "So how are you going to support him?" If they list things he's done - be 'on side' with them. Let them know how pleased you are that someone has finally seen what you have been trying to get noticed for the last two years. But bring it back to "Now he is here, and not coping, how can e work together to help him".
They will need evidence for an EHCP. Some people on MN always jump straight to it as if it is something you can just request. What the school need to do (if nothing has been done pre-school) is to write a plan (have different names in different authorities), and evidence that they have made 'X' adjustment and implemented 'Y' strategy. They need evidence of what they have tried and how they have helped him to cope.

The important point to remember is you DO NOT need a diagnosis of anything for the school to be implementing support for the child. That should happen regardless.